He invaded my space/was creepy. I feel angry - even days afterwards.

[septembernights]

Hi,

I was debating posting this, but I can't keep it in any longer and feel like I need a safe space to vent/question if I am being unreasonable.

The other day, after visiting my goddaughter, I had some time to kill - before heading out for dinner. I went to a hotel bar as I was in the city. It's a bar I've been going to for 20+ years. I had my work bag (thinking I was going to head to the office once free) but because dinner was nearby to where my goddaughter and her mother were - I decided to work at the bar. It's a lovely establishment, not loud etc... I also had a book in my bag.

I get to the bar and immediately 'feel' a man opposite staring at me. I shook it off and got my laptop/book out. Still, I could feel him staring. He then looked like he was leaving - great! He ended up coming over to me, saying hello - and asking if I could watch his stuff for him... except his stuff was on the other side of the bar...? I said 'I'm sure your stuff will be fine - no one is going to steal it!'

He then came back, got his belongings, sat next to me and offered me some chocolates - which was in one of the bags. I politely declined. He didn't relent/move. He acknowledged that he noticed the staff were familiar with me and said this place must be 'my local' - as it was his too. Great(!)

He ordered himself a drink - and offered me one. I said no. He then kept trying to chat - and after some polite interaction and I explained that I had work to do. He apologised and then touched me on my shoulder and in one movement - moved his hands down to mine and apologised again. I recoiled away from him. He must have thought he was being a gentleman in the way he was profusely apologising, but it really didn't feel like that.

I said I was going to move - at which point he proceeded to wrap up/leave. He asked for my number - I said no - and then said: 'Not to worry, since this is your local - I'm sure I'll see you in here again soon, no doubt...' - but he said it with a smile. He told me to 'take care' as he left. I found out he settled my check/bill - which annoyed me. I am capable of buying my own wine. I don't want to 'owe' him anything should I ever see him again.

It has been a few days now and I am mad - as in really angry. I'm angry that I wasn't stronger - even though he didn't do anything so awful. I feel like I can't go back to my place again. The older I get, the less patience I have. I wish I had the guts to speak up more and could have told him to F off. I'm tired of being 'nice' for fear of a man getting angry/violent.

Sorry if this is nonsensical - I'm just angry and raging. I'm getting my period next week, so maybe I am PMS-ing. But AIBU to feel angry days later? Why didn't I speak up? Why didn't I just move from the outset?

Please no abusive comments. I think I am just sensitive at the moment. :(

@Frenchie01 And as women we should support those who say that stepped over my boundary and has made me feel upset. You’re right boundaries are different but some empathy for someone who said this upset me is ok.

I had a creepy man at a party, so not a total stranger as he knew the host, although I'd never met him before. I find the 'no eye contact ' thing works, even if you've already made eye contact prior to realizing they are a creep. I have no issue being 'rude' if they've been rude first by being creepy.

Probably this man has v low self awareness and thinks he's being lovely and friendly. They always do. Not that that excuses anything.

Yeah, it's bad enough men do this to us, but when the sisterhood basically makes you feel bad for your normal reaction, that's worse.

Thanks! I was beginning to wonder if I was the only person who thought this. The world is full of people who don't behave how we would like them to for all sorts of reasons. Just deal with it and move on.

This is a ridiculous observation, btw. Part of a bar manager’s professional job is to pay attention to the comfort or otherwise of their clientele. The whole ‘ask for Angela’ scheme was created for just this sort of situation, for heaven’s sake.

I’m a teacher. Would you be happy if I ignored your child being harassed or inappropriately touched in my classroom because ‘enough with people expecting teachers to be bloody police too’? After all, I need to get on with my ‘busy and stressful job’ of delivering my subject.

FFS 🙄

Just saying what I think. He was trying it on. She didn't reciprocate. I think he knew he'd offended her as she said he was apologising and paid her bill on the way out . And she's still angry 7 days later.

I think you encountered a hardcore sexual predator, OP, and your response was visceral and alerting you to danger. I'm not surprised you're finding this hard to move on from. I believe you had a close shave and also it was significant and intentional that he chose to leave you with the impression that you cannot escape him and he will find you again. You had a near-miss and felt extremely threatened. Some of the comments on this thread are disgusting. It's also a reminder of the constant threat posed by men to the safety of women and girls.

When was 14, I went on a short train journey to visit my dad who didn't prioritise my safety and saved himself a 40 minute drive. A squaddie on the train started talking to me. I knew he was a threat. As we got nearer the station, he started really pressurising me to go for a few drinks with him. I knew instinctively that he was dangerous and I didn't have a lot of skills or experience to deal with the situation, but I was in a state of terror. I got away from him. This was 40 plus years ago, but I can remember as if it was yesterday. When the fear system is activated in that way, the memories are stored differently in the brain and the threat can be re-experienced in the present, as if it were happening right now. Like most women, I can think back over the years to numerous of these high-threat, very dangerous situations that I suddenly found myself in and having to navigate. Suddenly, you're in flight and need to find safety. Someone will be along in a minute to say I'm being dramatic and exaggerating the risk.

It might be worthwhile to contact the bar retrospectively and let them know that you had a very frightening experience there recently. This man should be on their radar. Your brain just did what it needed to do to flag up the danger.

That he will 'see her again' there is a veiled threat. She now feels she can't go back there. I wonder if you actually read all the OPs posts on this thread, and not just the first one. Btw, paying her bill is a way to make her feel indebted. You're very naive about how men operate. He wasn't sorry at all. Or else, knowing she felt uncomfortable he wouldn't have said

He asked for my number - I said no - and then said: 'Not to worry, since this is your local - I'm sure I'll see you in here again soon, no doubt...' - but he said it with a smile. He told me to 'take care' as he left.

No one over the age of 10 doesn't know he was deliberately making her uncomfortable and giving her a warning.

he chose to leave you with the impression that you cannot escape him and he will find you again.

This, exactly. I really believe there are so many posters that don't read past the title.

I can see the bar doing nothing, as nothing objectively 'bad' happened. They will likely see it as all in thr OPs head.

Just gonna be honest. No point giving up your bar over this, he knows where you work.

Don't give up your bar for this man.

It absolutely is the bar manager’s responsibility to make sure customers aren’t harassed in the bar. As a licensed environment there is a duty on the staff to ensure customers don’t become a nuisance. If they develop a reputation for not reasonably helping women being being harassed on their premises they may find their licence does not get renewed.

Don't let this creep stop you going to that bar OP. I think you reacted the way a lot of us would in the moment, when unprepared. Next time, be ready in case he appears and channel your inner warrior. "Please leave me alone I'm not interested" as the first, polite response. If he continues, "are you going to leave me alone or do I have to tell the bar manager that you're pestering me"?"

After that I'd engage the bar staff to deal with him. As much as it's tempting to shout 'fuck off' or something, I'd do my best to keep it civil for fear of antagonising him. Yes, I know, we shouldn't have to be like this, but too many people with "issues" out there who would do you harm as soon as look at you.

I really don’t think you get it.

You might be correct about this summary (I don’t think you are but that’s my view). But the point is the @septembernights nervous system or her spidery sensors or her gut feelings, whatever you want to call it, told her that this is not safe. She read that situation and felt it and it’s left her realing.

My worry about saying ‘it was over a week ago get over it’ is that we teach women and girls that these senses we have that inform us of threat should be ignored or we should get over it or we should just be polite is just dangerous. It simply is.

If this man had really felt bad about what he did he had so many other options other than step over her boundaries AGAIN.

He could have simply moved as far away from her as possible, turned his back on her and let her be. Instead her touched her not once but twice. I’m amazed you don’t see how creepy that is.

Jesus Christ. "Veiled threat " " hardcore sexual predator " oh God if she sees him in there again and he bothers her , tell him to piss off. Failing that ask the staff to kick him out .

This is incredibly annoying and unjust though, isn’t it? Men should back the fuck off whether you’re married or not. You shouldn’t have to share any personal information with them about your relationship status - a simple ‘go away’ should suffice.

Yes. The married thing suggests you are another man's property and he'd better back off in case other man turns up and gives him what for for pestering his 'property,'.
Not thar women have a right to say no to men themselves, for whatever reason.

So she’s not allowed to say no unless she’s working?

no means no.

I don't know, I don't see it that way. If a woman was trying to crack onto a guy in a pub, and he says he's a married man, does that mean he's the wife's 'property'?

Maybe they are each other's property, I guess.

He is a horrible creep OP who knew exactly what he was doing.
I'm in my 50s but was saying this to younger women at work.
We are trained as women not to cause a fuss or we are labelled "crazy/ psycho'.
I heard recently about the fight or flight responses being added to with freeze and fawn. I think this definitely applies to women in situations.
I was in Tesco recently getting a few things, walk past a man in his 50s or 60s saying to me "smile"., trying to get a reaction Maybe I looked miserable or he was trying to be funny, I said I'm happy and ignored him.
What I should have said was 'would you say that to a man?" I don't think so.
I have a teenage daughter about to school, I'm trying to encourage independence, it's a worry.
Now I'm older I ttry to care less about not offending people although it's hard at times when you are put in a situation And caught off guard.

EDIT: This was supposed to be a response to an earlier post suggesting it was impossible to interpret the guy's actions as anything but creepy...

Both your assumption and @Frenchie01 's assumption might or might not correct. Neither of you can be 100% sure. Not All Men etc etc.

But that's precisely the problem with this kind of behaviour. Women have been socialised to be polite and wise women have taught themselves to be wary. Good men need to be a lot better at removing themselves from positions of ambiguity.

I haven't got to the stage where I am immediately distrustful of any man's motive in striking up a conversation. I can see a situation where a man in a hotel lobby asks a woman who looks trustworthy to keep an eye on his bag (although there are lots of assumptions and implied obligations even in that request.)

But her first refusal then needs to be taken extremely seriously by the man. No means no. "No problem, sorry to bother you" is the only correct response. This is the behaviour I have taught my sons. You don't insist, you don't persuade. You take women at their word.

The touching, the payment, the final comment... all of these might well be some attempt to be charming and gentlemanly and old-fashioned, as @Frenchie01 suggests. It's kind of irrelevant.

At work, harrassment is defined by the way it makes the victim feel, not the intention of the perpetrator. The OP feels creeped out. We can't know if the guy "knew exactly what he was doing" but that isn't the standard we should judge his behaviour by.

I sympathise with you. Those minimising the experience are just different kinds of people - perhaps optimists rather than pessimists ( possibly with some internalised misogyny) - who assume positive motivations for male behaviour and who have perhaps been fortunate enough in life to have had few bad experiences or any consciousness of the dark underbelly.

He transgressed your boundaries - perhaps unconsciously - but I doubt it. He knew you were uncomfortable and busy doing something else but he didn’t care. I suspect this is why you are angry - and a little with yourself too ( though you shouldn’t be) because you didn’t cut him off more abruptly - I don’t blame you - seemingly normal respectable men can get very nasty when ‘ rejected’.

As a young women I did no more than roll my eyes at a young guy shouting at me in the street as I passed by - he came right up to my face in broad daylight and screamed right in it with flecks of spittle everywhere that I should be honoured by his attention ‘ugly slag’ that I was ( me in my covered up first work suit and sensible heels). This happens all too often. As I’ve got older - and despite an overwhelming majority of positive experiences with decent men - I have learned never to underestimate male sexual entitlement and their unquestioning expectation of female attention and service.

I’m middle aged now and I still see it. At a cafe a few weeks ago with plenty of spare tables I was enjoying my peace and reading when an old man asked if he could join me. He look benign - pleasant and harmless. Even now I had to correct my instinct born of Christian teaching and kindness to smile and say yes in case he was lonely. But no- I said politely and loudly that I’d prefer to be alone and fortunately a member of staff directed him to a neighbouring table. I didn’t feel guilty as I would have done when younger.

We do little girls no favours when telling them to be kind at the cost of their personal safety, comfort or even convenience.

FUCKING MEN!!

This. He knows he made her uncomfortable and he doesn't care because her wishes/comfort dont matter to him.

I've been in a situation where I've encountered a man who made me uncomfortable many times (it was unavoidable) I made it as clear as I could that I wished to be left alone but it had no impact. The only thing I never did was scream "FUCKING FUCK OFF" in his face but I doubt that would've had an impact either because he only cared about his own wants. To hear other women rolling their eyes and telling OP to get a grip or consider herself flattered (only a matter of time before that pop's up, if it hasnt already) is disheartening as hell.

Turning away is vital. This signifies that you are done speaking. Remain facing him after you say you're not interested and he'll persist. If he speaks after you've turned away ignore him. It's a good idea to practice this with a friend so that you have this b o r e d attitude down pat. Good luck.