He invaded my space/was creepy. I feel angry - even days afterwards.

[septembernights]

Hi,

I was debating posting this, but I can't keep it in any longer and feel like I need a safe space to vent/question if I am being unreasonable.

The other day, after visiting my goddaughter, I had some time to kill - before heading out for dinner. I went to a hotel bar as I was in the city. It's a bar I've been going to for 20+ years. I had my work bag (thinking I was going to head to the office once free) but because dinner was nearby to where my goddaughter and her mother were - I decided to work at the bar. It's a lovely establishment, not loud etc... I also had a book in my bag.

I get to the bar and immediately 'feel' a man opposite staring at me. I shook it off and got my laptop/book out. Still, I could feel him staring. He then looked like he was leaving - great! He ended up coming over to me, saying hello - and asking if I could watch his stuff for him... except his stuff was on the other side of the bar...? I said 'I'm sure your stuff will be fine - no one is going to steal it!'

He then came back, got his belongings, sat next to me and offered me some chocolates - which was in one of the bags. I politely declined. He didn't relent/move. He acknowledged that he noticed the staff were familiar with me and said this place must be 'my local' - as it was his too. Great(!)

He ordered himself a drink - and offered me one. I said no. He then kept trying to chat - and after some polite interaction and I explained that I had work to do. He apologised and then touched me on my shoulder and in one movement - moved his hands down to mine and apologised again. I recoiled away from him. He must have thought he was being a gentleman in the way he was profusely apologising, but it really didn't feel like that.

I said I was going to move - at which point he proceeded to wrap up/leave. He asked for my number - I said no - and then said: 'Not to worry, since this is your local - I'm sure I'll see you in here again soon, no doubt...' - but he said it with a smile. He told me to 'take care' as he left. I found out he settled my check/bill - which annoyed me. I am capable of buying my own wine. I don't want to 'owe' him anything should I ever see him again.

It has been a few days now and I am mad - as in really angry. I'm angry that I wasn't stronger - even though he didn't do anything so awful. I feel like I can't go back to my place again. The older I get, the less patience I have. I wish I had the guts to speak up more and could have told him to F off. I'm tired of being 'nice' for fear of a man getting angry/violent.

Sorry if this is nonsensical - I'm just angry and raging. I'm getting my period next week, so maybe I am PMS-ing. But AIBU to feel angry days later? Why didn't I speak up? Why didn't I just move from the outset?

Please no abusive comments. I think I am just sensitive at the moment. :(

If he had thought this, he would have realised that the OP wasn't a sex worker the moment she declined to encourage him in any way. But he continued to keep trying to engage with her.

I think this is good advice. Also, to any poster saying ‘are you married?’ ‘Tell him you’re married’ - do me a favour. Single women are allowed not to be harassed and don’t have to pander to men by pretending to be married just to avoid being harassed.

OP it is understandable this would be bothering you

what a twit

You didn't do anything wrong. You didn't particularly engage in conversation, was polite but clearly not interested. I do wonder if some men are just so thick skinned, that they can't read body language and behaviours. A woman appears disinterested, yet they still try again (and again), to engage with her. It's then when a woman feels she needs to be blunt and the man is all offended and doesn't see what he's done wrong. I honestly believe politeness is often seen as encouragement, rather than what it is. I haven't experienced anything like this for quite some time, but the last time I was out with my friend and a couple of blokes started chatting us up. Being older (with zero tolerance for bull shit!), I automatically just said 'I'm married, and even if I wasn't I wouldn't be interested, sorry nothing personal'. It was polite but blunt, and there's no misunderstanding of where they stood!! Don't let this creepy man stop you from enjoying your local.

These things are never your fault.

Speak to the staff - and be very clear that he was creepy, you don't know him, he is never to pay for your bill. Ask whether he actually is a regular, and make sure they know he may be pestering other female customers. Ask whether they're part of Ask For Angela, and what their procedures are, so you know you can expect help if he shows up again.

Beyond that - if you feel able to, speak loudly and say "I don't know you, why are you talking to me? You are being creepy. Why are you talking to a strange woman? I don't want to talk to you. Go away. Leave me alone. Fuck off you creep."
I've done this in public (admittedly in the street and public transport, rather than somewhere nice) and it makes them back off swiftly and look worried. Plus there is the bonus of calling yourself a strange woman 😁

They aren’t police officers. Unless he’s actually doing something wrong, which he wasn’t, then she should let the poor hotel manager get on with his or her busy and stressful job which already includes dealing with tonnes of dickheads all day long. I’m sure if he escalated the manager would feel a sense of responsibility and step in, but what do you want them to do? Go about kicking someone out and getting themself into a potentially dangerous situation because a woman had a conversation with a man who had the nerve to touch her hand once? How would they even say it? Sorry you’re going to have to leave because, though I have no evidence of it, you have been dubbed a creep…?

I get he was a creep but really enough with people expecting hospitality workers to be bloody police too.

Not sure I agree. Most reputable establishments do not want creepy men frequenting their premises annoying their female clientele. If you were to report to the management you might find he has done this once to often and they could bar him from the premises.

@Laiste He deserved his loneliness though didn’t he.

I was pestered at lunch once in a little cafe by a man who wanted to take me out to dinner. I said no more than once and then said look I’m married, he said he didn’t mind. I said I did married or not.

I completely disagree about not telling the manager. They need to know if someone is pestering women on their premises. Better to kick one man out than lose a lot of female customers.

But you were drinking at a bar so you can see where there may have been some confusion. Doesn’t excuse his behaviour but drinking at a bar working isn’t exactly screaming professional.

I don't get why you are angry about it! If polite refusal doesn't work, just be less polite.

So drinking at a bar + laptop = sex worker?

Also, how does it excuse his continued unwelcome advances/touches? If I was a sex worker of some sort, surely I'd be happy to engage from the outset...?

Unbelievable - I know it’s infuriating but you kept your cool and dealt with it well, even though he was being an idiot and a creep - I think your response was probably what most people would have done in that situation. Over 30 years ago now a guy sat opposite me on a train late one night and he unzipped his trousers and pleasured himself in front of me in a very threatening way - he pulled out the side of his coat so no one else on the train could see him. I was terrified, completely frozen, didn’t move seats, and got off the train as soon as I could and ran home looking over my shoulder the whole time for fear he was following me. I am still furious every single time I think of it, that he got away with it, that I didn’t scream at him, that I didn’t move away and that I didn’t report him to the police. The crap we have to deal with eh. Hope you’re ok x

I actually think it was quite creepy how he made a point to mention that he would likely run into you again, after your refused to give him your number.

He wanted you to know you may run into him at any point. That this regular place of yours is now no longer safe from him.

I think calling him mistaken or "just persistent" or telling you that you should be firmer with him is minimising how what he said could actually be quite threatening.

You repeatedly made it clear you weren't interested and he repeatedly crossed lines, including touching you.

The fact that some PP are minimising this is WILD to me.

I was in a railway station i got a coffee. An old man sat down at the table and i talked to him politely because I was very young about 18 and very immature. Didn’t even occur to me to cut him dead. I would now though. Train was about to arrive and i went over to wait. He came over and in front of everyone he started saying that we have to get a booth together and have sex. I was horrified. I looked around and everyone was watching and I thought someone would help. But i wasn’t saying anything. I did not say go away you nasty creep i do not know you. Leave me alone. So no one else knew what i was thinking. I was in a state. I don’t even know if he got on the train. I got on and walked up and there was a seat opposite a nun. And i sat there really glad although I’m not sure what she would have done to help! I look back now and i know what to do. I am wary of everyone! Innocence was a curse.

So sorry this happened to you. Sadly, it's not the first time I've heard about things like this on the tube etc... it's awful. I know how infuriating it must be to think he got away with it. What an awful experience. I hope you're ok.

I've had a fair few incidents - nothing as horrible as the one you recalled - but in hindsight, I always wish I was 'stronger' and 'angrier' - not to say that you aren't/weren't to be clear!!

Even now, I wish I was bolder RE: my OP - which is not the worst story in the world by any means!

And I'm sorry, but sex workers also deserve consent and physical boundaries to be respected.

Even if you were "working" as PP put it, he still has NO right to touch or persist with talking to a woman who repeatedly shuts him down.

He ignored very normal and reasonable social cues given by you.

Just say you have a boyfriend/husband the next time….

I think you did really well actually. It's hard when you're confronted by this sort of behaviour.

I actually do think it's worth having a word with the manager - you say the staff know you quite well. Let them know what happened and that you didn't appreciate them letting him pay your bill. And if you do go back and he's there, sit by the bar and if he comes near you, tell him firmly you don't want to chat and look for support from the staff.

It's the entitlement, isn't it? Fucking infuriating.

Sorry Op I know this was different from your situation but your op reminded me of it. It was a man behaved appallingly and i didn’t / couldn’t respond in the appropriate way which would have been to tell him to Fuck off. Actually in my situation i needed to call on the many passers by/bystanders that would have been very willing to help. But i felt frozen for some reason.

And that doesn't always work. Said it to a guy on the bus once, his reply was that my husband wouldn't mind!

In my experience, that doesn't deter them.

Bar staff have a responsibility to protect women in the bar. There are different ways of doing this. It sounds like you've had bad experiences of doing this, but this is an essential part of the job.

We all need to stand up and shout fuck off to any man that is overstepping and causing anxiety. Obviously we can’t though. I don’t know the answer.

He was over bearing