To think SAHM with young DC deserve more respect

[CheekyFawn]

I work full time but currently on maternity leave looking after my 5 months old baby and a toddler DS who is 3 yo.
I just don't know where my time goes. Between breastfeeding baby, getting DS ready for preschool and tidying up the house, cooking meals etc, it just feels like there is no time at all even to have 5 mins of coffee break. I feel it was much better when I was at work couple of months ago when DS was in nursery that I used to get at least a lunch break for an hour or 30 mins at least or time between meetings to have a coffee and look at my phone in peace. I imagine this is I think how a day looks for SAHM with young DC and it's bloody hard. Many people just assume they are not doing much but I think they deserve more respect.

Nor do I, I used a playpen myself when mine were at that unpredictable crawling/not walking securely/putting everything in your mouth stage.

I meant that mothers should absolutely feel confident and have every right to go to the toilet or have a cuppa alone, but I do know people IRL who are very hesitant to do this, and I think that’s more prevalent with our generation possibly. Mums- go to the toilet, it’s fine! 😂

I also meant ‘ignore’ in that she did not feel she had to personally entertain me directly herself for every waking second of my day, not ignore me as in I’m hurt and screaming 😂 I actually believe insisting on some independent playtime which is not directed by adults teaches children from a young age to play and entertain themselves and be less whiny! 😂

I'm sure the self professed feminists of MN have other ideas though....

What sort of feminist isn’t “self professed”?

Is it something you can find out you are later in life? Is it luck as to whether you have the right blood test at some point?

Everything that happens in society is a societal issue and this is obvious.

But when some people claim (on every SAHM thread) that they want a 'societal debate' about the impact of SAHMs, what they actually mean is they want to express their view that the very concept and existence of SAHMs is harmful in society. That's the crux of it.

Essentially, their reasons for continually provoking this 'debate' seem to stem for them feeling criticised or disadvantaged in 'society' - eg.

@SouthLondonMum22 - you are very honest that you find being with your young children quite boring. You often speak of your irritation that it's only you (not your DH) who gets snide comments that your kids went into full-time nursery at 12 weeks. Your sister is a SAHM? Also, you talk about how you earn more than your DH and you have separate finances. You say that you would never have married a man who went away on business for more than a day or two because you refuse to be on your own with kids for that long.

@Thepeopleversuswork - you talk about having one DD as a single mum. You feel that families with a SAHP model structurally disadvantage you in the workplace.

So I can see where you're both coming from, but I'm not sure what answers either of you are searching for on these threads though? Do you really think that if all SAHMs disappeared tomorrow, that would be a 'better,' 'fairer' or 'happier' population on a 'societal level?' If so, 'better / fairer / happier' for who exactly? You may be happier if you think all women are being forced to live life in ways that correspond to your life choices. You may also think all that matters is that women do everything the same as men and vice versa - regardless of whether they actually want to not. But what about what would get taken away from mums, dads, families and children in this scenario - like the right to organise their families according to their priorities? The right to live life on their terms?

Wanting to be around for your own kids and to not have to engage with or rely on nursery staff or childminders if you don't have to, is a fairly basic human desire. Those who can afford to be around as default for their own children day to day, very often will. Why on earth wouldn't they, it's hardly unusual or controversial. Others may not be cut out for it, or they can't afford it, and that's also fine. That is 'society' essentially. People will do what they want regardless.

Thank you! I can now truthfully say, after 44 years of studying or working FT, I am over working for a living!! I can't wait to please nobody but myself!!

My children were born late 90s/early 00s. I don't think I even heard of a mother's and toddler's group in a church or anything of the kind. Not sure it would have been my thing though. I guess I will never know!

How I loved my kids' playpens! You didn't have to take them to the loo. They're actually pretty good at entertaining themselves in safety for a few minutes. They were also a great way of keeping a toddler off a baby!

I recall remarking to a colleague once (also a mum of 3) that I sometimes wished the playpen had a roof! "A cage you mean?" she said!

It isn't a human desire though is it? Otherwise men would want to do it as much as women and that just isn't the case. That's where societal influence comes in and if you go against the norm as a mother, you are judged and that's part of the issue.

Also, for the record, I found the newborn stage boring and I found doing nothing but being with a small baby boring but with the balance of working and them getting older, I don't find being with them boring which was part of the point of going back to work.

I like the discussion these threads often bring including the hope that society can change for the better and no, that doesn't mean forcing mothers to work against their will but for society to stop seeing women as the default parent and for more men to step up as parents and make sacrifices women often make without a seconds thought.

@SouthLondonMum22 - fair enough. I just think there are always going to be women who want to prioritise being with their kids and, for those women, this is more important to them than what men may or may not want.

@DExpert

I did feel structurally disadvantaged in my career by virtue of being a single mother, this is true. Part of that, though by no means the whole of it, is that I have been competing with men who have SAHMs and who are therefore able to work much more flexibly than I am without the limitations I have had due to the need to care for my child. It is a fact that men with wives or partners who don't work have a massive career advantage over women who don't.

I'm not "searching for answers" around this; actually being a single mum without a husband has turned out to be a massive benefit for me as it has meant a) I have got to keep all the money I've earned without having to share it with anyone, which has massively benefited my DD and b) I have a stronger relationship with my DD than I would otherwise. So ultimately it's been a great thing and I am completely at peace with it. But it is factually much much harder for me than it is for a man who has a SAHM and in my industry most of them do. And of course I've noticed this.

I don't think SAHMs owe anything to anyone else, they have to put the needs of themselves and their children before anyone else. I've said many times on this thread and others that I have no issue with this (And then been torn off a strip for being patronising so it's hard to win this one). But that shouldn't prevent me and others from observing that the playing field is skewed against women like me.

It is also, as @SouthLondonMum22 a major factor in the fact that women are still largely treated as the default parent (which leads to them doing most domestic work whether they work or not). Again, I wouldn't expect a SAHM to reshape her life to make my life easier, people have to choose what works for them. But I'm allowed to notice and comment on something which has had an impact on my life and the lives of others like me.

It's human nature to be interested in the societal implications of something when you've experience it yourself. If you've been on the receiving end of any kind of structural disadvantage in society you are much more keenly focused on it. So of course I'm interested in this, and I won't apologise for this.

But what do you want SAHMs, on the SAHM threads, to actually say or do about this @Thepeopleversuswork ?

You could argue that families with grandparents who provide free childcare are disadvantaging you? You have just the one child - does that disadvantage families with 3 or 4 kids? Where does it end?There is no point in comparisons.

Stop pretending that it doesn't affect others for a start. I've had that argument on this very thread.

@DExpert there it is again, "I just think there are always going to be women who want to prioritise being with their kids" - always the implication that women who, in your view, don't "'prioritise being with their kids" over working, are not as good or as worthy a mother as you.

Don't you see, it's actually really insulting?!

@DExpert

I don’t expect SAHMS to do anything, as I have literally just stated in my post. I expect them to do whatever suits their lives.

But that doesn’t mean I am not allowed to have observations on this topic and how it impacts on me. It’s one of the most important discussions we have in society and I have a perspective on it which I have a right to voice on a forum aimed at mothers.

And after 30 pages of heated debate, being told this has nothing to do with society, nothing to see and that I don’t have any right to comment on it because I am not a SAHM (as another poster has suggested) seems ridiculous.

It's nothing do with 'worth.' @mainecooncatonahottinroof . Even if all things are equal, women have different priorities.

Who not go in Gransnet and rail about the societal impact of grandmothers dating to SAH with grandchildren?

It has everything to do with 'worth'. You think you are a better mother than me. That's what it all boils down to. You're judging working mothers for not prioritising their children (in your view!) by staying at home with them.

Clearly not all women want to give up their careers when they become mothers otherwise discussions within threads like this wouldn't exist.

No point. My children's grandparents are all long dead. Mine were dead by the time my eldest was 9.

Not sure what you mean by "dating" though!

Some of us are 100% prioritising our children by going out to work. Roof over their head, opportunities, experiences, the ability to fit in with their peers.

@mainecooncatonahottinroof - are you ok?

Yep. Most of the time it isn't even a choice.

What kind of a silly question is that? Better than you, I think!

It is less about being seen as a 'default' parent and more to do with couples making the practical financial decision for their family.

Lets not deny basic biology either, women are the ones whose bodies need time off to recover, women are the ones who breastfeed, women are the ones who get flooded with hormones making bonding with the baby (in most cases) an instant chemical reaction. So it makes sense that women are the ones who usually want to be the SAHP.

That isn't how I am defining it, that is what a social issue is.

Social issue | Definition, Identification, Examples, Social Problems, & Facts | Britannica

I don't disagree with many of your points as they are societal issues. Choosing to be a SAHM does not fall under this umbrella.

And so nothing will ever change. Because as long as women earn less (remind me why that happens) they’ll be the ones taking the time off to be with the children and round and round we go. I can’t be the only woman to actively avoid mentioning a bloke at work to avoid assumptions that “she’ll be off having babies soon, no point promoting her”.

The couples that break the mould are the ones that will change expectations placed on our daughters and their daughters.

”I’m on mat leave, I may as well do all the housework for a year. I’m sure my husband will pick up 50% of it when I go back to work” is a sure fire way to concrete boots for women. Shared parental leave is meant to be a leveller but is used only infrequently. My employer gives 6 months full paid paternity leave, which is always used but we don’t see those men dropping early for school runs and child sickness. Certainly a head scratcher. 🤨