To think SAHM with young DC deserve more respect

[CheekyFawn]

I work full time but currently on maternity leave looking after my 5 months old baby and a toddler DS who is 3 yo.
I just don't know where my time goes. Between breastfeeding baby, getting DS ready for preschool and tidying up the house, cooking meals etc, it just feels like there is no time at all even to have 5 mins of coffee break. I feel it was much better when I was at work couple of months ago when DS was in nursery that I used to get at least a lunch break for an hour or 30 mins at least or time between meetings to have a coffee and look at my phone in peace. I imagine this is I think how a day looks for SAHM with young DC and it's bloody hard. Many people just assume they are not doing much but I think they deserve more respect.

I agree if more men took on those roles it would make a difference but it’s just inherently wrong that something is perceived as more valuable if men do it.
I’ve seen the videos before and with a daughter who prefers joggers, hoodies and shorter hair and another who likes princess dresses I’m very conscious of things like the differences in how they are expected to behave or what they might be interested in when we meet people out and about. I think you do catch yourself sometimes letting underlying assumptions and stereotypes slip in. I work somewhere that makes a lot of effort around diversity and I think people genuinely believe in equality. In spite of that every work trip I’ve gone on since having kids someone has asked me who is looking after them. The men who were on the same trips with children have been asked the same precisely zero times. This stuff is so ingrained. It’s not easy to change but I don’t imagine the fact a number of women chose to be SAHMs is the main thing preventing it.

Stuff is very ingrained. I have a DD (3) who is incredibly capable physically. Some examples of this are that she completely mastered the huge soft play area from around 20 months and is now riding her pedal bike so confidently, she instinctively got how to start, pedal and stop very quickly from using a balance bike. Now she’s constantly scaling to the top of walls at clip n climb 😂

I have had other parents watch her in action at soft play gasping at me ‘how old is that little girl?! and at parks stunned at the equipment she is using. Some are definitely shocked at how much freedom she has, but I have zero need to hover over her, I trust her. I’m always like she is fine, she knows to hold on/what she’s doing, just watch her! 😂 she is fearless and I am so proud of her.

My point is, I do think some people are more shocked/surprised because she is a little girl! I am so glad more women are finally getting a proper opportunity with sport nowadays, eg our Lionesses, and I will always challenge anybody who underestimates my DD with her sportiness 💪🏻

@SouthLondonMum22 - yes exactly!

Don't be one of those posters basically. This is what I'm saying.

If a working mum just posts a personal perspective or anecdote about struggling with nursery-pick ups or whatever, she should not be required to justify why she uses nursery per se, or worse, see her thread co-opted into a wider 'societal debate' about the impact of childcare, etc.

If a SAHM just posts a personal perspective or anecdote about feeling overwhelmed or unappreciated, she should not be required to justify why she is a SAHM (including her finances, what she does all day, her marriage dynamic, you know the rest), or worse, get co-opted into a wider 'societal debate' about the impact of SAHM, her value or her very existence!

If people wants to discuss the impact of SAHMs in society, or working parents in society, by all means do so - start a thread about this. But don't hijack every thread with 'nursery' in the title, or 'SAHM' in the title, purely in an attempt to twist it into the judgement-laden discussion you want to have.

How rude to try to shut down someone who doesn't agree with you. Make that stop!!

You weren't making a point at all.

Hang on just a minute - would you ever stop telling people what they can and can't post?

@DExpert

If a SAHM just posts a personal perspective or anecdote about feeling overwhelmed or unappreciated, she should not be required to justify why she is a SAHM (including her finances, what she does all day, her marriage dynamic, you know the rest), or worse, get co-opted into a wider 'societal debate' about the impact of SAHM, her value or her very existence.

Whats the problem with having a “societal debate”? You seem to find this problematic but I can’t understand why. It was set up as a societal debate.

The whole premise of the OP’s post is societal. She is not saying SAHMs deserve more respect from their families she is saying they deserve more respect from society. None of us have any control over how other women’s families treat them. By definition it’s a discussion about society.

Plenty of people have weighed in with their opinions about the role of SAHMS in society.

But now you seem upset by this and are implying that WOHMS are derailing the discussion by making it about society. It was about society right from the start.

You can disagree as much as you like but you can’t reframe this as a WOHM pile-on. And you also can’t order people not to have discussions about what something means for society. That is a major point of the Mumsnet talk boards.

EXACTLY!

As a woman who doesn't work I have NEVER felt the need to go onto a thread where a working mother was complaining about her work/life balance with: 'Well... you know... I'd never want to be a working mum, but...'
Then take the opportunity to bash working mums in a sly underhand way.

It absolutely is unhinged behaviour, especially as OP is on mat leave, she isn't even a SAHM!

I think the repeat offenders should ask themselves why they feel the need to do this? They see 'SAHM' in a thread title and they are on it quicker than a tramp on chips!

Why would you? It's outside your realm of experience. People are posting based on their own experience.

The OP is at home at the moment.

Define "repeat offender"?

Yet it happens all of the time.

There was a recent thread about a working mother asking how to manage her child getting ill when they've just started nursery and I knew there would be comments about OP working full time, never getting the time back etc and I was correct.

That people who don’t have kids have to pay for. You are very entitled.

Some people only see what they choose to see.

@SouthLondonMum22

There was a recent thread about a working mother asking how to manage her child getting ill when they've just started nursery and I knew there would be comments about OP working full time, never getting the time back etc and I was correct.

Absolutely. Almost every thread in which someone asks a question about whether or when to go back to work will fill up with these stupid "you'll never get the time back" comments.

And that's the nature of the beast. People get defensive and sensitive. You find "societal discussion" or conversation about the position of SAHMs in society triggering. Some of us find being told we don't like our kids enough to stop work triggering. It's swings and roundabouts.

It's a debate. And if it offends you it offends you but no one has the right to police threads or tell people not to comment outside of their lived experience.

@Thepeopleversuswork - I will tell you why I came in this thread. I wish I hadn't bothered, but here it is.

I think it was about 10 years ago. At that time, I was a SAHM with a preschooler and two in school, probably reception and Year 2 or thereabouts. There was a situation with a mum in my eldest one's class. I was new to MN and had seen the thing about the 'CFs.' I posted on AIBU about this particular woman being a CF.

A few posts in, someone randomly asked if I was a SAHM, so I said I was.

That was that. The whole thread became about the fact I was a SAHM! I have to tell you that you were a leading one on the thread @Thepeopleversuswork . For days, you were trying to take the thread off on a tangent about SAHMs and societal value because you worked in an office and felt men with SAHMs had an advantage over you as a single mum. Well, that may well be true, but WTF did that have to do with the topic of the thread?

I had posted a question about a CF who wanted me to collect her daughter every day and hold keep her until 6pm, when my DD wasn't even friends either her particularly. Nothing about SAHMs, in society or on the moon!

Anyway, the thread went on and on and on. You were there until the end, basically requiring me to justify my purpose in life, marriage and basic existence - all under the premise that you deemed a structural debate on the value of the SAHM was called for. But I only had only posted about a specific situation with this other mum!

To be fair, although you were strangely persistent about the SAHM angle, you were not involved in the direct name calling. There were some other, particularly bizarre, posters on there, leading the charge. One (who I think got banned) said I was essentially a prostitute. You might remember her, she had a posting-style like a demented robot (Lipstickhandbag?)

Talk about overkill. I have never seen anything like it in my life and I couldn't believe it. I actually left MN after that for a couple of years. When I joined again, I'd often check in on threads about SAHMs - invariably it's still many of the same posters as 10 years ago, still desperate to engage in the same agendas. It's not as bad now, as I think some must have been banned, but still. I see what I see. We can all read. We know what's going on. Let's not pretend otherwise.

And yes, before the inevitable response, yes, I have also seen people post horrible things about mums who use childcare. If I was in a thread where I saw that, I would challenge it. But it still doesn't justify the SAHM / WOHM nonsense. I think it's depressing.

A lot of people want women to have choice…unless they choose to be a SAHM.
That’s as bad as when society tried to pressure everyone to be a housewife. Ultimately it’s misogynistic and still trying to dictate what women do.

We hear a lot about female empowerment nowadays…well I’ll tell you some things I feel empowered about as opposed to working for my previous boss. I’m now my own boss, I do exactly what I like every single day. Watching my DD playing with all the activities I set up for her in my garden this afternoon in the glorious sunshine, chattering away to me, unhurried, instead of ringing a tidy up bell and destroying good learning as a pressurised EYFS teacher…yeah, I have genuinely never felt more liberated or experienced such good learning as I do in my own home. I completely get now the appeal of home educating.

I will never have anyone say ‘no you can’t have time off to see your child’s show’, I will never tolerate that from anybody. I will never worry about my child struggling on whilst unwell because I am here for them. I tailor my children’s lives to suit their needs and preferences and mine and my husband’s, not an employer’s or the government’s. Bottom line- my children come first, always.

Guess what? If my children’s school p me off, I won’t be whinging, I’ll be changing school as I have the time and freedom to transport them to wherever I choose. I can even home educate them. It feels fantastic!

SAHMs should celebrate their lifestyle more!

A lot of people want women to have choice…unless they choose to be a SAHM.
That’s as bad as when society tried to pressure everyone to be a housewife. Ultimately it’s misogynistic and still trying to dictate what women do.

How often do men get this choice? Why is it only SAHM that matter?

I will never have anyone say ‘no you can’t have time off to see your child’s show’, I will never tolerate that from anybody. I will never worry about my child struggling on whilst unwell because I am here for them. I tailor my children’s lives to suit their needs and preferences and mine and my husband’s, not an employer’s or the government’s. Bottom line- my children come first, always.
Guess what? If my children’s school p me off, I won’t be whinging, I’ll be changing school as I have the time and freedom to transport them to wherever I choose. I can even home educate them. It feels fantastic!
SAHMs should celebrate their lifestyle more!

Come back if/when you’re a divorced single parent/pensioner with a minimum wage job and tell us how free you are and how often you thank your lucky stars then!

My Mum is divorced and works in a lower paid job in a pharmacy- she loves her job and she loves having 2 full days off a week to spend with her grandchildren. She actually turned down a promotion because it would interfere with that time too much. Zero bitterness from her, she loved being a SAHM when we were younger. Attitude and appreciation is everything, not money.

Given that I’m mortgage-free at 38, DH can therefore continue to save loads every month in both, yes both, our own names, as funnily enough, being married means we view our income as joint, it’s our house and our money. As a teacher I genuinely earnt too much, I’m very thrifty and saved tens of thousands of pounds before quitting. I actually would be happier in a lower paid job when I return to work, most likely as a TA (I know loads of older TAs who love their job).

So yeah, I’ll take my chances, and will never regret enjoying my youth with my children when I’m in full health to enjoy life! Not that I have to explain or justify any of this to you of course. I don’t fear the present or future because I’m a positive person 😊

I never said they shouldn’t/didn’t. I know couple where Mum is the breadwinner, Dad stays at home or where both have dropped to part-time. Completely up to them how they organise their life.

My DH actually offered to be a SAHD if I’d have preferred to continue my career/would swap at any time. We both prefer being at home with our children to at work. He loves being a teacher because of the long holidays with his children. Actually, if he hadn’t been a teacher we may have explored both of us working part-time, as he would have wanted more time with them.

Very personal decisions for each couple to navigate according to their own beliefs and preferences.

I’d take that over the pressure of being the breadwinner

@DExpert

I’m sorry you felt you were being attacked on that thread. It sounds upsetting. And I’m sorry if you thought I went on about it.

But I won’t apologize for caring about this topic deeply and posting about it. I have been a single mother through most of my career as a parent and it’s been very hard at times. I find it incredibly upsetting when people tell me I wouldn’t work if I loved my kids or blithely wave away this situation as a “lifestyle choice”. I find it insulting and I don’t want to leave it unchallenged.

But this is the name of the game. Both sides feel judged by the other and therefore passionate about defending why they parent the way they do.

But this is exactly why it’s an important societal conversation. We do need to be kind and respectful when we discuss this (and some are not). But we shouldn’t stop talking about it.

There was a thread a few months ago from a SAHM who, having been (understandably) pissed off that her pilot husband didn’t put his cup in the dishwasher, listed her day, hour by hour in great minutiae. Then, to compare how easy her husband had it, she listed his day with “work” being on entry in the list. She’d clearly lost all context.

SAHM often say that without them doing what they do, their husband wouldn’t be able to do his job but in many cases it’s not true, the husband could outsource the childcare, cleaning etc.

No-one should have to justify their choices and every person should feel valued by their own family, but to seek wider validation is nonsense.

This is very much an exceptional circumstance.

That seems to be the crux of it-anger about their own situation and nothing to do with a debate.
One of the other posters on the SAHM threads was also a single mother to several children and RAGED at SAHM

It's really unhealthy to attack others because of your own circumstances, however tough it may be.

I am a WOHM btw before the accusations of bias start
Edit
This also ties in with the research I have been looking at which shows women attack other women rather than hold men to account .