To be horrified that Israel is slaughtering children at a rate not seen for ober

[ThisNattyTurtle]

Israel killed more children in 15 months than were killed in all the conflicts of the world in the last 4 years combined. Israel is killing children again now at an unprecedented rate and the UK is supporting it with weapons, money and intelligence.
Israel is committing genocide according to the UN, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch. Israel killed 159 Palestinians, including children, during the ceasefire - only 1 Israeli was killed in that time and that was a soldier in a friendly fire event.

Mumsnet HQ there are at least 3 threads about Ukraine still on AIBU, and many other political ones. Please do not hide this topic away in the other section again without at least explaining why UK involvement in the mass slaughter of children is not worthy of the front page. We are supporting a regime much worse than Russia, as much as Russia's regime is awful.

Yes, all of it and more sadly.

From the UN: https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/08/israels-escalating-use-torture-against-palestinians-custody-preventable

@HellsBalls

From the amazing Israeli NGO B'Tselem

https://www.btselem.org/publications/202408_welcome_to_hell

From Save the Children 2019 about the child prisoners (12-16yrs old) held and abused by Israel

www.savethechildren.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases/2023/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-of-palestinian-children-detained-by-israeli-military

From the US state department, John Paul was a former member State dept who resigned in protest at the Gaza genocide, but here he recounts BEFORE Oct. 7th, on West Bank NO Hamas, how the dept received credible reports from an NGO that a 15 yr old was raped by Israeli soldiers in jail. They asked the Israeli govt for a response - the next day the govt raided the offices of the NGO and declared them a terrorist entity

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/lKYd6NhhLms

Bizarrely also never interviewed on the BBC to my knowledge

@HellsBalls TRIGGER WARNING
it was even caught on camera, a group of soldiers standing with their riot shields up while one of them gets busy at the back end of a prisoner. One Palestinian prisoner was transferred to hospital nearly dead, required bowel resection and colostomy because the bowel had been perforated in so many different places by foreign objects forced into the rectum.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qmjGdzyj5BA&pp=ygUgSXNyYWVsaSBzb2xkaWVycyByYXBpbmcgcHJpc29uZXI%3D

This is the Israeli doctor who treated these patients who were sodomised close to death:

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?q=www.timesofisrael.com/doctor-who-reported-abuse-of-palestinian-detainee-i-blamed-fellow-prisoners/amp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/doctor-who-reported-abuse-of-palestinian-detainee-i-blamed-fellow-prisoners/amp/

It is NOT accidental that you are not hearing about any of this

@HellsBalls Dr. Adnan Al-Bursh was the head of the Orthopaedic dept in Al-Shifa hospital. He had undertaken fellowship training in the UK and was well respected, but chose to go back to Gaza to serve his people.
He was 50 and completely fit but died in Israeli custody with eyewitnesses and survivors reporting he was regularly tortured. Eyewitnesses report of his death: (TRIGGER WARNING) "we heard terrible screaming then a whole later we saw Dr. Al-Bursh in the courtyard. He was naked from the waist down and bleeding, he could barely walk then he collapsed. Later he died.
The UN finds the reports of torture credible:"

news.un.org/en/story/2024/05/1149856

@ThisNattyTurtle Do you have another thread deriding Hamas for hiding amongst Palestinian families and in heavily populated areas?

TRIGGER WARNING
peoplesdispatch.org/2024/11/20/dr-adnan-al-burshs-death-by-torture-underscores-brutal-targeting-of-palestinian-health-workers-by-israel/

Israel is a democracy. Russia is not.

The current conflict in Israel started because the terrorist dictatorship of Hamas attacked Israeli citizens, torturing and slaughtering and kidnapping babies, children, women and men. israel did not start this war.
Russia is also an effective dictatorship as Putin kills opposition leaders and rigs elections. Russia started the war. Hamas is the equivalent to Russia, not Israel.

Hamas did not need to start this conflict and at ANY time since October 7th they could have stopped it by handing back the hostages and laying down arms. Instead of doing this they have issued a public statement saying they need the blood of their own citizens to fortify their fighters. And they mean it. They could have sheltered their citizens in their massive tunnel system, like Ukraine sheltered its citizens and London did in the tube during WW2. But they chose not to. All of the deaths are on Hamas, the knowing and deliberate instigator of this war.

Israel, unlike Hamas, has pre warned Gazan citizens of attacks. We know this worked as we recently saw the mass returns of Gazan citizens in safe corridors provided by Israel.

Urban warfare does have high citizen casualties. This conflict has had lower citizens to combatant casualties than other urban warfares because of how Israel has conducted it.

In October of last year, Hamas and Hezbellah had fired 27000 rockets at Israeli since October 7th. God knows what the figure is now. The only reason Israel is not destroyed is because Israel invested in the Iron Dome to protect its citizens, rather than tunnels to protect its terrorists, as Hamas did.

I hold the responsibility for conflict with dictatorships that start conflicts by deliberately targeting citizens. I don’t blame countries defending themselves from a neighbour open about its intent to carry out October 7th over and over and had recently been revealed as planning another imminent such attack.

Given all this, it’s pretty clear critics of Israel simply don’t think Israel has a right to exist or defend itself. They appear to think Israeli Jews should quietly let themselves be slaughtered. The racism of people who think like this is blatant.

@HellsBalls oh and the absolute best bit, when the video of the Israeli soldiers sodomising a prisoner emerged, Israel made a show of arresting 9 soldiers for an investigation (lol). Politicians from the govt joined a far right mob, broke into the military base and demanded those rapists be freed. Needless to say every single one was acquitted and they later appeared on TV shows as mini-celebrities. Google it.

Because they speak and write and exist and have family who live outside Gaza. Because Israeli/Jewish journalists like Gideon Levy, Dan Cohen, have been in and out of Gaza with total liberty. See Andrey X (the.andrey.x and theandreyx) a young Russian Jew who became an Israeli citizen the realised the occupation and apartheid and has become a solidarity activist who goes alone and unarmed into the West Bank often. As do many other young Israeli peace activists. Read the Israeli soldier testimony in 'Breaking the Silence'.

You do realise that the Jews in the Kibbutz were the peace loving Jews? The ones who did the peace work, who spent their lives transporting Gazan to Israeli hospitals ( because their own dictatorship government had spent the billions of aid on preparing for October 7 th rather than building up Gaza) (btw on the kidnappers spoke of how his family member was saved by such action) , and yet, knowing this, Hamas targeted them for torture and slaughter. People who kill the peacemakers, and publicly glory in it, don’t want peace.

It’s hard to know what ordinary Gazans think as Hamas kills those who criticize them.

The fact your posts are full of hate for Israel but do not feature similar angry rage against the countless outrages committed by Hamas, tells me you are motivated by racial hatred against Israel and not by concern for civilian lives.

You are completely ignoring the violence inflicted by Israel on the population it dominated pre:Oct. 7th.

Life in Sept 2023:
Israel held 400 Palestinian child hostages aged 12-16 (source: B'Tselem) in military jails. The majority of them were convicted of "throwing stones", the next biggest category (147 children) were held indefinitely under administrative detention ie no charge no trial. The UN notes Israel is the only country known to try children (Palestinian only of course) in military jail and the conviction rate is over 98%. Stone-throwing gets 10-20 yrs. Israel abducts an avg 700 Palestinian children from their homes each year (UNICEF child Detainees OPT 2013, Save the Children 2019).

Israel killed unarmed civilians and children with impunity. Jan -Sept. 2023 32 Palestinian children gunned down, 2022 34 Palestinian children gunned down, with Save the Children issuing a warning to Israel regarding this. Etc etc each year for decades (see the number breakdown on B'Tselem website).

Worth noting Israel killed Rachel Corrie, Tom Hurndall and BBC cameraman David Miller loooong before Hamas/Oct. 7th.

Israel funded and armed illegal settlers to go into Palestinian territory (which is only 22% of historic Palestine) and build heavily fortified compounds from which they could launch pogroms on the Palestinian villages and farms, like the one in which they burned 18mth old Ali Al-Dawabsheh to death. Some settlers brandish photos of the toddler at wedding celebrations and beat it with slippers. Google it.

Israel destroyed Palestinian homes and deprived them of water - they made it illegal for Palestinians to gather rain water in what is supposed to be their own state (see Amnesty "the occupation of water" 2017)

Please kindly open your eyes and grow a conscience

Oct. 7th 37 Israeli children unforgivably killed, in a war crime, with evidence from survivor testimony for at least 7 being killed by Israeli military fire in the Hannibal directive.
Jan-Sept 2023 32 unarmed Palestinian children killed by Israel. 2022 34 unarmed Palestinian children killed by Israel. Etc etc for years.

This is 2005 in Gaza before Hamas. Israeli captain emptied rifle into a 13 yr old schoolgirl. His OWN soldiers testified against him, he was fully acquitted.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

Israel is not a true democracy, it is committed to maintaining a Jewish majority meaning it is an ethnocracy. It is democratic for its Jewish citizens only. Look at Human Rights Watch which describes the 3 tiers of apartheid practiced by Israel, with the 'mildest' being that against the Arab population who they marginalise through active policy measures to prevent them gaining power land or influence. By Israeli law a Jewish person from the US can claim citizenship today and be treated better than the Arab population whose families have been there for generations. That's the considered legal opinion of Human Rights Watch among others.

@ThisNattyTurtle Do you have another thread deriding Hamas for hiding amongst Palestinian families and in heavily populated areas?

Before Oct. 7th Israel had Gaza under total siege by land, sea and air for 16 yrs a "de facto occupation" as per the UN.
Remember the 4 cousins bombed while playing hide and seek on the beach?
One killed in the 1st strike the other 3 as they tried to flee. 2014
It's in fucking video and photos, the kids were 11 and under, but of course Israel cleared itself

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/11/israel-clears-military-gaza-beach-children

Look on OCHA's website at the list of all the things banned from entering Gaza by Israel - medicines, building supplies etc. all this 'oh Gaza could have been a Singapore of the Middle East' Gaza had its own airport and was a thriving seaside city til the Israeli blockades. Israel has steadily bombed Gaza backwards, not the other way round.

@HellsBalls lol wow ok let's just ignore that Israel is committing genocide and apartheid and killing children pre and post Oct. 7th, illegally detaining them an mistreating them (as per all the NGOs).

But sure let's play. Israel's ministry of defence building is in the middle of downtown Tel Aviv does that make all the buildings next to it suitable targets? Of course not - unless you are a nutjob like Hamas or the Israeli army, that is. No evidence of Hamas hiding in any of the hospitals (apart from the "calender of terrorist names!!!" Which of course was the days of the week in Arabic) and the tunnels which Ehud Barak told CNN were built by Israel.
But, if Hamas is doing that they learned from the best, from the Israeli Lethi and Haganah terrorists who now have blue plaques commemorating proudly how they used human shields (see article below by Neve Gordon former Israeli soldier driven out of that 'democracy' by death threats when he criticised the apartheid)

https://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2023/december/on-human-shields

Unfortunately op the posters on Mumsnet think genocide is acceptable because hamas took hostages

@ThisNattyTurtle your posts are amazing well done on all the hard work and the facts and links to back up all your arguments.

I think the sexual violence report is beyond shocking. That has nothing to do with self defense, all all to do with evil men and the dehumanizing of Palestinians (especially women).

Shocking though that posters ask you to prove something, you do, they ignore the facts and then come back with something random and unrelated.

Here's just one story from the genocide not covered by the BBC (see Karishma Patel on resigning due to BBC bias).

Hind Rajab a 6 year old girl was in the family car (Kia Picanto) with her father, aunt and 15 yr old cousin, fleeing from North to South Gaza. Israeli armoured vehicle opens fire killing the adults. 15 yr old Layan phoned the Red Crescent for help, gunshots ring out and she is silent. Then little Hind's voice comes on, begging the operator to come and get her from the car. They speak for 3 hours til the battery runs out. The Red Crescent get permission from the Israeli army to rescue Hind. Ambulance sets off. It is later found bombed out metres from Hind's car. Hind's little body is found with 355 bullets in it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YpmQrFSSLqc&pp=ygUKSGluZCByYWphYg%3D%3D

https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/the-killing-of-hind-rajab

@ThisNattyTurtle LOL! Wow! Ok let’s just ignore the fact that Hamas are responsible for every death in Gaza since Oct 7th.

‘Because Hamas took hostages’ is that how you view October 7th?

See those people are expressing Hamas logic. If they are saying that genocide and the slaughter of children is justified because of Oct.7th/hostages, they are echoing, regarding Oct. 7th, Hamas' argument that it was justified because of all the Palestinian hostages Israel took and the Palestinian children it killed (32 unarmed children killed Jan-Sept. 2023, 34 unarmed children 2022, etc etc for years. 37 children unforgivably killed Oct. 7th 2023).

Are they responsible for the IDF sexual abuse and rape of Palestinians also?

Oh and the ones before October 7th because there was a lot of them too?

@HellsBalls MSF, the World Central Kitchen, the UN, would all disagree with you because they experienced direct targeting by the Israeli army in Gaza. The videos and medical testimony of Israeli drones and snipers shooting children dead disagrees with you (see Jewish American Dr. Mark Perlmutter who wore the star of David round his neck as he treated children in Gaza. He said he saw children aged 5-9 shot in the head, heart and chest with pinpoint accuracy. Google it).

Simple question. The PA in the West Bank renounced armed resistance 30 years ago, and fought Hamas in 2006 to drive them out. Why are you not calling on the Israeli govt to obey international law and end the illegal settlements, release the Palestinian hostages (the 1000s held without charge on administrative detention, lawyers, teachers, children throwing stones - not the minority who committed actual crimes), stop shooting children dead, and give Palestinians the 22% of their historic country on which to make a state?. Israel could have done this on Oct. 9th and had all its hostages back and at the same time completely taken the stuffing out of Hamas by giving Palestinians a state and their basic human rights. Why do you prefer the genocide route? That is genuine question I really would like to understand.