To be horrified that Israel is slaughtering children at a rate not seen for ober

[ThisNattyTurtle]

Israel killed more children in 15 months than were killed in all the conflicts of the world in the last 4 years combined. Israel is killing children again now at an unprecedented rate and the UK is supporting it with weapons, money and intelligence.
Israel is committing genocide according to the UN, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch. Israel killed 159 Palestinians, including children, during the ceasefire - only 1 Israeli was killed in that time and that was a soldier in a friendly fire event.

Mumsnet HQ there are at least 3 threads about Ukraine still on AIBU, and many other political ones. Please do not hide this topic away in the other section again without at least explaining why UK involvement in the mass slaughter of children is not worthy of the front page. We are supporting a regime much worse than Russia, as much as Russia's regime is awful.

Well I'm not a terrorist, so I can only give my theory on why they don't release them.

They took them as bargaining chips. They have used them as just that, so they wouldn't just release them as they then have no capital in their eyes.

On May 24 2024 National Security Adviser Tzachi Hanegbi said that they wouldn't stop the war even if all the October 7 hostages were released, so I assume this is another reason they didnt just release all the hostages.

Ultimately they are a terrorist group, bad actors and cant be relied on to act in good faith. My opinion is the onus is on Israel to comply with international law where applicable and preserve as much civilian life as possible.

My belief that Israel are acting badly, is not tied with a belief that Hamas are acting well and so 'whataboutery' isn't really relevant or helpful here, as I'm not supportive of either side.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I can’t help noticing how many people like to dismiss questions of hypocrisy or double standards by calling them "whataboutery".

I'm not dismissing anything at all. But when I say Israel are acting badly and people say "what about Hamas" that implies I think Hamas are acting well.

I know Hamas are acting badly, I don't expect anything else from them. I just wonder why people don't expect more from Israel. Of course there was going to be a response to October 7th, but as an 'upstanding member of the world' for want of a better phrase, Israel MUST act with integrity and follow the rules of war, or they become as credible (in my eyes at least) as Hamas.

Like this conflict, it was not so black and white. Have you heard about the arms crisis in Ireland? Ireland and the UK very almost went to war over the lack of rights for catholics in Northern Ireland - there were a lot of politicians on both sides who wanted to go to war and there was a huge support among Irish people too - my mum remembers them talking about conscription (50/60 years ago) and being terrified they would enlist her brothers. There was a huge scandal then when it was found that top officials were actually sending arms (instead of aid to ordinary people) to the IRA - Charles Haughey who went on to be Taoiseach was involved though not convicted. Also the thousands of ordinary people who took to the streets and burned down the British embassy after Bloody Sunday. Not to mention the UK government officials involvement in the UVF. It wasn’t just the various protestant and catholic terrorist groups - the two governments were in a sort of cold war that could have escalated if it wasn’t for cooler heads. I wouldn’t make sweeping statements to back up your points if you do not know the history and the facts.

There is rarely a time in history when things are clear cut and black and white. As I have pointed out before Gaza has a young population, the majority of them either were not alive or of voting age when the last elections happened in Gaza. If you don’t allow free elections for decades it is not a democratically elected government. To call Hamas an elected government is disingenuous and skewing the facts. Interestingly Israel actually funded Hamas in it’s early years as a way to get rid of the left wing parties in Palestine - they had much more involvement with Hamas getting into power than an 18 year old Gazan who has never seen a polling booth.

Fair enough, but it’s hard to fight effectively following the "rules of war" (which in themselves seem a crazy idea when you think about it) against an opponent who flagrantly breaks them from day one and openly does not value the lives of their own civilians.

I do know the history and the facts, both about Ireland and about the funding of Hamas.

But despite the involvement of individuals the IRA was still not the Government of Ireland, so an attack on Irish targets as a response to the IRA would have been outrageous. Hamas on the other hand is the government of Gaza, whether or not most of those alive today voted for them.

Unfortunately, in every war innocent people who might not even support their government's actions suffer. That’s why it’s better not to deliberately provoke a war, especially with a militarily superior neighbour, if you care in the slightest about your citizens. Or if you do decide to deliberately provoke it, don't then complain about what ensues.

Within international law and without committing war crimes

And what would that have looked like in practice?

Negotiations,compromise, international help and advice.

So you think kidnappers, murderers, torturers and rapists should be rewarded for their crimes by achieving negotiations and compromises?

Let’s bomb Gaza and risk hostages lives. Seems to be working

I don’t know what the "right" response would have been. But giving in to kidnappers' demands just leads to more kidnaps in the hope of more compromises. Hamas leaders openly threatened to repeat the attacks "again and again" unless they got what they wanted. I don’t agree with giving in to people like that, especially ones who have been vowing for years to wipe out Israel and kill the Jews.

It's about saving lives (hostages and innocent civilians), but also very importantly, achieving long lasting peace. Israel should have looked at the bigger longer term picture, at how safety and security could be achieved for Gaza and Israel. But Netanyahu had his own specific agenda - that had nothing to do with peace or getting those hostages back

I don’t defend Netanyahu. He is awful.But I understand why Israel might not want to secure the return of the hostages at any price. They had to consider the future safety of their citizens, not signal that if Hamas did it again they would get more compromises. As a general rule it’s not a good idea to bargain with kidnappers, though of course I understand that the families of the abducted people would want them back at any cost.

There is a simple, obvious reason: it is Gazans who are suffering and one might expect that their government has the most to lose from the continuation of the war and would therefore want it to stop. As you rightly say, the awful Netanyahu probably wants it to continue. But if the hostages were released it would be much harder for other countries, including the US and the UK, to support Israel's continuation of the war.

Apart, of course, from the morality aspect.

You do realise you are describing IDF's actions evidenced by so many international organisations?

I regard anyone who can write that in the context of what response should have been made to the October 7th atrocities as beyond understanding and not worthy of further attention. Goodbye.

Well, you are justifying genocide, so I'm not arguing with you and not trying to change your opinion. I'm just showing you how your own argument looks to people reading news differing from yours.

Hahaha hahaha
Yes it is supported and enabled by the US and the UK -that does NOT make it a democracy
It's a racist, apartheid failed colonial project not a country

Try reading the whole exchange, then you might understand what we were actually talking about. HTH. 😉

When The West responded to terrorism post 9/11 it killed 387,000 civillians.
That is what war does.

If you don't want war and death, don't terrorise military superpowers.

This makes no sense. Civilians aren't terrorising anyone and yet they're the ones paying the price. That is the thing people are upset over. The killing and starvation of innocent civilians.

I’m quite disappointed that my government took part in that war. Also, a consequence of my government taking part in that war was that the worse terrorist attack happened killing 200 people in my country

war never brings anything good and kills innocent civilians.

There is definitely a conflict - an Israeli life isn’t worth more than a Palestinian life.

Hamas does need to release all the hostages immediately but Israel needs to stop holding Palestinians in an open air prison with their homes, businesses, schools and hospitals destroyed.

Trump needs to be stopped on his talk of a Gaza riviera and ethnic cleaning.

Why would it make it harder for these counties to support Israel? They've been aware Israel have been acting illegally for decades and continued to support them. They know the leaders are wanted on war crimes and still support them and may have even implicated themselves in war crimes - even more reason why they too don't want the war to end. You seem to have a very limited understanding of the legality of Israel's actions. You are rightfully condemning the illegal acts of Hamas but you support Israel. If they're above the law, what meaning does it have? How do we condemn and punish Hamas for breaking these laws when Israel does the same and people turn a blind eye?