To be horrified that Israel is slaughtering children at a rate not seen for ober

[ThisNattyTurtle]

Israel killed more children in 15 months than were killed in all the conflicts of the world in the last 4 years combined. Israel is killing children again now at an unprecedented rate and the UK is supporting it with weapons, money and intelligence.
Israel is committing genocide according to the UN, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch. Israel killed 159 Palestinians, including children, during the ceasefire - only 1 Israeli was killed in that time and that was a soldier in a friendly fire event.

Mumsnet HQ there are at least 3 threads about Ukraine still on AIBU, and many other political ones. Please do not hide this topic away in the other section again without at least explaining why UK involvement in the mass slaughter of children is not worthy of the front page. We are supporting a regime much worse than Russia, as much as Russia's regime is awful.

People are ignoring that killing Palestinian children won’t protect Israeli children.

Please give me one logical reason that life for anyone in Gaza or the Palestinian territories would be improved by this "look, Hamas are acting in good faith!" Ridiculous suggestion. Did you think Israel weren't committing human rights abuses galore before October 7th? Why don't Israel show they're operating in good faith and follow the court orders to withdraw their illegal occupation and hand over their leaders accused of war crimes? By your logic it would show they're working in good faith and that they really want the war to stop.

The only way this war is going to stop iand hostages are returned is if the ceasefire agreement continues, and unfortunately Israel broke that because guess what? They don't want the war to end because once this is over Netanyahu is in big trouble.

This line of reasoning worked on most people before 2023. Since then many of us were forced to read history of the conflict and listen to plenty of opinions. You need a new argument.

How many actual Palestinian children have to die now before it would be too many? For you to protect hypothetical Israeli children? Is this in a hypothetical future scenario where Hamas are funded by major western countries and have access to massive bombs and lethal drones, and white phosphur btw?

I can't believe the mental gymnastics of some people. Hamas are bastards, but the schizophrenic claim is much more suited to anyone spouting Israeli propaganda talking points.

Shame Israel didn't think about the need to eliminate Hamas before they funded them. Or did they? 🤔 It's certainly got a lot of you defending their warcrimes

And why did Israel not follow the Ceasefire agreement and then we'd all know they wanted the war to stop and were acting in good faith

It’s not about "punishment of the Palestinian people", it's about trying to eliminate murderous terrorists.

I did not say that you used the words "bargaining chips", but that is certainly how Hamas must view them, or why would they have abducted them.

You don’t believe in war or violence. Great. Let’s just ask Hamas nicely if they would be so kind as to stop trying to wipe out Israel and calling for the death of Jews, shall we? I’m sure they'll listen and do what we ask…

But hang on, I’m Jewish, so I wouldn't exist because the Nazis would not have acceded to your polite requests and would have taken over Great Britain and murdered my grandparents.

And Israel’s government ignored the multiple alarm bells that Hamas was planning something big So much for Israel protecting their citizens as some posters indicate. Israel’s government cares nothing about its citizens.

I don’t know why. I wish they had, or explained clearly why not.

Your turn to answer my questions, which you ignored.

You sure do like to avoid any questions asked of you don't you? By your logic, what should the Palestinians do in the face of an illegal occupation and systemic human rights violations included the sadistic sexual torture they face in Israeli jails?

Article I mentioned earlier ‘Hamas out’ protests spread across Gaza

Hundreds of Palestinians shouted anti-Hamas slogans at a rare protest in Gaza on Tuesday.
“Hamas out” and “Hamas terrorists” were chanted by the mostly male demonstrators in Beit Lahia as they called for an end to the war with Israel, witnesses said.
The crowd had gathered a week after the Israeli army resumed its intense bombing of the coastal territory, following nearly two months of a truce.

Reports suggested that further protests had broken out in Khan Yunis, southern Gaza, on Tuesday night. The Telegraph was not able to verify these reports.
Protests against Hamas are rare in the Gaza strip. The terror group has cracked down violently on demonstrations in the past, with Amnesty International reporting in 2019 that people had been beaten and detained arbitrarily over protests against the cost of living.
It also said protesters had been subject to torture while in detention.
“I don’t know who organised the protest,” Mohammed, a demonstrator who declined to give his last name for fear of reprisals, told the AFP.
“I took part to send a message on behalf of the people: Enough with the war,” he said, adding that he had seen “members of the Hamas security forces in civilian clothing breaking up the protest”.

Majdi, another protester who did not wish to give his full name, said the “people are tired”.
“If Hamas leaving power in Gaza is the solution, why doesn’t Hamas give up power to protect the people?” he asked.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/03/25/gaza-anti-hamas-slogans-protest-war-end-conflict-israel/

It was Israelis who were raped and burned alive - a deliberate action: women and children were targeted.
Israel is not targetting women and children (and investigates reported abuses) but targets Hamas, who use women and children as human shields (which is a war crime).

Plus it repeatedly ignores the wishes of the hostages families. They don't care about the hostages or what happened on October 7th, they don't even want to preserve evidence for further investigation. All Netanyahu etc care about is their own agenda.

Guess you just weren't watching it reading the news on any of the days they published the reports of the extent of sadistic sexual torture of Palestinian detainees? And you didn't see all those videos of Palestinian refugees burning to death with their IVs attached?

I agree on this. Netanyahu's governement moved troops from the Gaza envelope to the West Bank which facilitated attacks. They also ignored the families of the hostages. But Hamas actually did the raping, murdering and hostage-taking, so they carry most of the blame here.

which questions? I'm not intentionally ignoring you, happy to answer any questions you think I'm ignoring.

Ultimately we'll be going round in circles forever, I can't see me ever coming to the view that the way Israel are behaving is justifiable. That's not me saying I have any support for Hamas and their actions, the continual conflation is irritating. I have said countless times that I think both parties are despicable and want as much death as possible.

So how do you think Israel should have responded to the October 7th atrocities?

They have pretty clearly explained why - Netanhyahu needed Gvir to stay in power and for their budget votes. Gvir wants zionists greater israel, so the genocide needs to continue. Gvir returned, ceasefire was broken.

Even for the rapes and murders by Israelis? Everyone can agree Hamas are awful but this incessant need to blame Israel's crimes on Hamas is classic darvo

Palestinian children are dying because Hamas is a terrorist organisation which used those children as a) human shields, a war crime, b) won't negotiate or keep any agreements.
Disaffecting Gazans from Hamas will save Israeli children.

I am not blaming Hamas for any rapes Israeli soldiers have committed - and that need to be investigated. I do blame Hamas for starting the war and using the civilian population as human shields and necessary sacrifices.

The human shield argument is unusable. What good is a shield when idf don't care about killing said civilians? Also, what about when idf soldiers use Palestinians as human shields?

Also Israel are committing war crimes and israel broke the agreement

You won't disaffect Gazan children from Hamas by bombing, starving, raping, torturing and killing their families though.

Evidence of rape and torture (and asking men to strip to their underwear to check for suicide vests and weapons is not torture, but normal practice in searching enemy personnel in war).
There is meanwhile clear evidence of rape, murder and torture on Oct 7th, documented by Hamas itself, who saw it as good propaganda to publish videos of women and girls being gang-raped.

My question, before you changed the subject to Israel's breaking of the ceasefire, was "Well, why don't Hamas just release them then? We would then all be able to see that they were acting in good faith and really wanted the war to stop, wouldn't we?"

The Gazans clearly are the ones suffering the most, so I don’t understand why everyone who has their interests at heart isn’t calling for the release of the abducted hostages for the above reason. The fact that the release of the hostages has never figured in the demands of pro-Palestinian sympathisers seems very telling to me, despite the frequent protestations that they don’t support Hamas. (On the contrary - posters showing the hostages' photos and calling for their release have been repeatedly torn down by pro-Palestinian protesters.)

But I agree with you that we are probably never going to agree on the topic in general. I dislike Netanyahu and many of his policies and think Israel should withdraw from the West Bank. I'm just surprised and saddened that generally reasonable people don’t seem to understand that Israel, the only majority Jewish state in the world (established on the recommendation of a UN resolution) is surrounded by enemies who want to destroy it and has to fight for its survival.

Its establishment may not have been fair to the Palestinians, but most countries in the world have changed ownership of land at some point, most often sadly by force. Hundreds of thousands of Jews were driven out of Arab countries, with no redress. Only the Palestinians demand a "right of return", extending to descendants of the people originally displaced, descendants who have never set foot in the place they demand a "return" to.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/08/israels-escalating-use-torture-against-palestinians-custody-preventable

There is CCTV footage of a rape in Sde Teiman prison.