To be horrified that Israel is slaughtering children at a rate not seen for ober

[ThisNattyTurtle]

Israel killed more children in 15 months than were killed in all the conflicts of the world in the last 4 years combined. Israel is killing children again now at an unprecedented rate and the UK is supporting it with weapons, money and intelligence.
Israel is committing genocide according to the UN, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch. Israel killed 159 Palestinians, including children, during the ceasefire - only 1 Israeli was killed in that time and that was a soldier in a friendly fire event.

Mumsnet HQ there are at least 3 threads about Ukraine still on AIBU, and many other political ones. Please do not hide this topic away in the other section again without at least explaining why UK involvement in the mass slaughter of children is not worthy of the front page. We are supporting a regime much worse than Russia, as much as Russia's regime is awful.

Jewish-American doctor Mark Perlmutter who wore his star of David round his neck while saving lives in Gaza, on how the Israeli snipers target children repeatedly, the majority between 5-9 yrs old.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2QdalGDpCIU&pp=ygUTTWFyayBQZXJsbXV0dGVyIGdheg%3D%3D

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QhI2Rlt3SSc&pp=ygUTTWFyayBQZXJsbXV0dGVyIGdheg%3D%3D

Shame on all of those you still defending this. A shame that you will not erase.

Could you please actually lift a finger and use Google?
Assuming of course that you are in good faith.

The UN conducted several investigations into Oct. 7th
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/coi-attacks-7october2023-report-10jun24/

They investigated the sexual abuse reports and found that individual acts of sexual abuse likely occured but that there was no evidence of systematic sexual abuse (worth noting the Hamas militants wore body cams many of which were recovered by Israel later, and much of the footage was also published by Hamas for propaganda. But there is no footage of rape or killing children intentionally up close. There is of course plenty of footage of other war crimes and what Hamas did remains utterly condemnable).

Of course, Israel prevented the UN from being able to properly investigate the sexual violence claims by not allowing it to meet a single witness... isn't that a bit odd?? Much like them forbidding foreign journalists entering Gaza...these are behaviours of a state with lots to hide.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-01-08/ty-article/.premium/israel-blocks-un-hamas-sexual-crimes-probe-to-avoid-inquiry-into-abuse-of-palestinians/00000194-44e0-d087-a9bd-7de1d5f20000

It's quite something for a poster on here to openly admit they know it's a genocide is taking place, that people are being raped and murdered and they don't care. At least you're honest 🤨

There are very strong views on both sides. Like many in the UK I support Israel. Hamas brought this all on upon itself. It could start by releasing all hostages and the bodies of dead ones right away without conditions.

Unlike many of the awful regimes around Israel, Israel is a democracy which has the support of the UK and USA.

Like many in the UK I support Israel.
Where are you getting that assumption from? The most recent polls indicate that the majority of UK voters do not support Israeli actions in Gaza

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/majority-of-voters-in-uk-back-banning-arm-sales-to-israel-poll-finds

It could start by releasing all hostages and the bodies of dead ones right away without conditions.
There was a ceasefire deal that would have achieved this, Israel did not go to phase two and started bombing Gaza again indiscriminately so not sure why you think your suggestion would achieve anything

Israel is a democracy which has the support of the UK and USA.
A democracy carrying out war crimes and potentially genocide, their leader has been charged with crimes against humanity, being a democracy is irrelevant.

It's not a coincidence that so many like yourself that post on here that claim to support Israel just don't even read or follow the news on this situation is it? They already said nearly a year ago now that the release of all hostages would not stop the assault on Gaza. This is such old news and yet so many people still make excuses that the relentless murder of civilians is because the hostages haven't been returned.

@ComeAsYouAreAsAFriend
“Like many in the UK I support Israel.
Where are you getting that assumption from? The most recent polls indicate that the majority of UK voters do not support Israeli actions in Gaza”

They are indifferent, because Hamas, the government of Gaza, started it.
Personally I support Israel in defending itself.

I think many in the West are conflicted because while they feel sorry for innocent Palestinian civilians, Hamas started the violence.

There’s an article in the Telegraph I will link later, it’s behind a paywall but it is about Palestinian civilians starting to protest against Hamas, not an easy or safe thing for them to do.

A democracy whose leader has a warrant out for his arrest for war crimes.

If someone raped, tortured and murdered members of your family or community and abducted others, would you be happy to just secure the release of the abducted ones and leave it at that?

But if, as you say, the hostages are no longer any use as a bargaining chip, why don’t Hamas just release them?

do you know what’s the families of the hostages asking for? They’re asking for a ceasefire and an agreement with Hamas to have their relatives back. They don’t want this war.

Oh for fucks sake.
This is just repulsive.
Israel is not killing 3, 4, and 5 year olds because it is afraid of them.

I understand why they might feel like that. But rewarding kidnappers always just leads to more kidnaps.

Not rewarding them doesn’t seem to be working well either and also families of hostages don’t want revenge against innocent civilians. Not sure how killing 15k children is going to get their relatives back. Not killing and rewarding or agreeing with Hamas is the way that some families have had their relatives back

Could you please actually read my post and reply to all of it, not just the bit you prefer?

I’ll remind you: You rightly condemn Israelis who talk about wanting to destroy Gaza and kill Palestinians. Many Palestinian and other Muslim leaders have for many, many years talked openly about wanting to kill all Jews and destroy Israel. Did you condemn them too?

I think of Hamas with the same utter disdain that I think of all terrorists (I was in Warrington the day the IRA bomb exploded and killed children).

However,

The UK did not react to the IRA bombings by carpet bombing Ireland and killing thousands of innocent civilians.
Israel's actions are outrageous and disgusting.
They don't want peace, they want condos on the beach, in Trumps holiday resort. They don't care who or how many they have to murder to achieve this.

Some families got their relatives back because Israel released hundreds of prisoners in exchange for a very small number of hostages. Some of those released were convicted murderers. I understand why the families would want that but I don’t think it’s a good policy for a country to adopt.

Yahya Sinwar was released in 2011 in a similar exchange. He and over 1000 others were released in exchange for one Israeli prisoner - unlike Hamas, Israel demonstrates how much it values its citizens. He had been imprisoned for orchestrating the abduction and murder of two Israeli soldiers and four Palestinians, and after release became the leader of Hamas and planned the October 7th atrocities. (Despite having received life-saving surgery for a brain tumour while imprisoned in Israel - what gratitude!)

Are you not aware that Hamas leaders have openly vowed to repeat the atrocities again and again if they don’t get what they want? Agreeing to the demands of such people is not, in my opinion, a good idea.

Don’t be silly. The IRA was not the government of Ireland.

Trump and his ideas are vile but that has nothing to do with it.

Well, why don't Hamas just release them then? We would then all be able to see that they were acting in good faith and really wanted the war to stop, wouldn't we?

But why expect them to care about the suffering of their own civilians when they refer to them contemptuously as "necessary sacrifices".

People are ignoring that if Israel doesn’t do its best to eliminate Hamas, it will be Israeli children being murdered again in the future.
Hamas and the Islamists cannot be reasoned with. It’s like trying to reason with a schizophrenic without their meds, or train a mad dog.
The Israelis understand this, as do every other government, and why no other nation, including their backers Iran, want a single Palestinian refugee.
Hamas are not reasonable people, they are as good as insane.

Please don't put words in my mouths I would and have never used words as offensive as bargaining chips.

If someone raped, tortured and murdered members of your family or community and abducted others, would you be happy to just secure the release of the abducted ones and leave it at that?

What exactly are you advocating for here? Are saying that's Israel's actions have nothing to do with securing hostage releases and is about punishment of the Palestinian people? Does your logic go both ways? If someone is radicalised to Hamas because the IDF kidnapped their child, subjected them to indefinine detention without trial and sadistic sexual abuse while detained...?

I don't believe in war or violence. Clearly you're advocating for it, which is odd because then by your own logic, what should Palestinians who have faced barbarism and terrorism from Israeli soldiers or settlers do? Should they be happy with just the release of some of their hostages and leave it at that?

Killing innocent civilians won’t protect you from that danger though

OP, thank you very much for this thread, I appreciate it's a huge committment of time and emotional energy.
We need to talk about it. Not so much about Israel, but the UK.

For years, we've heard propaganda about the superiority of democracy, and how good we are having these values and supporting other who have them, etc., etc... I mean, yes, generally democracy is better than autocracy and/or totalitarianism. What I mean by propaganda is replacing free and fair local elections in a limited system with 'the will of the people'. A poster above was justifying genocide because a democracy was doing it.

Has anybody seen 'we will support genocide, war crimes and cries against humanity' in Labour's manifesto? Me neither. Why does our governement support that? (and the previous one, and those before them too) This is not in the UK's interests. (This is not in Israel's interests either, but that's a different question).