To be horrified that Israel is slaughtering children at a rate not seen for ober

[ThisNattyTurtle]

Israel killed more children in 15 months than were killed in all the conflicts of the world in the last 4 years combined. Israel is killing children again now at an unprecedented rate and the UK is supporting it with weapons, money and intelligence.
Israel is committing genocide according to the UN, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch. Israel killed 159 Palestinians, including children, during the ceasefire - only 1 Israeli was killed in that time and that was a soldier in a friendly fire event.

Mumsnet HQ there are at least 3 threads about Ukraine still on AIBU, and many other political ones. Please do not hide this topic away in the other section again without at least explaining why UK involvement in the mass slaughter of children is not worthy of the front page. We are supporting a regime much worse than Russia, as much as Russia's regime is awful.

The idea of having a claim to a landmass based on where ancestors came from hundreds or thousands of years ago is completely ludicrous. Can we prove all of the Israeli citizens have ancestors from there - what about people who converted to Judaism can they prove their ancient roots? Can we also prove Palestinians are not indigenous? Now let us use the logic of claiming land from thousands of years ago and let us empty the US, Australia, New Zealand of all the people who arrived in the last few hundred years - hand Trump tower to the Native Americans. Hand the UK and Ireland over to Pagans! It’s be a mad world, particularly for those of us who have mixed heritage we can go mad with claiming spots around the world!

Also as has been mentioned on countless occasions, Israel is no more a democracy than Iran - a large portion of people that were born there and have lived there for generations have no vote. A democracy doesn’t just represent only one section of society!

If only Israel allowed international organisations/journalists to verify this information … wonder why they don’t want to.

raoe is rape unless the victims is Palestinian. Then there is a “but”

I think its appalling and Hamas are 100% to blame for what they did.

I'm not one the one here justifying any kind of violence though, that poster is. As far as she is concerned Hamas are to blame for Israeli deaths and Palestinian. I'm wondering where that poster stands on Israels rape, sexual assault and sexual violence.

What are your thoughts on it? If you are justifying Israels presence in either or both how do you propose women and girls can be protected from Israels sexual violence?

Taking sides on this issue is pathetic and immature. This isn't a football match. They're murderous twats, all of them.

I've seen this preliminary report has been produced about the 7th Oct attack that began this conflict

https://www.7octparliamentarycommission.co.uk/

I've just seen your edit. Why are you lying about where the information on these women's and girls rapes are coming from? Why would Hamas be giving information on teenage girls being raped in the West Bank?

Your defence is that you don't believe these women?

It’s all horrific. But young and old die in war.

Hamas don’t respond to negotiations and words. They are intent on attacking Israel.

Israeli children were slaughtered by terrorists in the October massacre.

Israel is fighting to exterminate Hamas, a terrorist organisation I’m sure you wouldn’t want to live next door to. Hamas won’t leave without using their own citizens as targets.

Israel has a right to exist. Israel has a right to defend itself. Israel has a right to peace.

I feel for every child in Gaza, it’s truly horrific. But the adults in Gaza need to do something. They need to rid their terrorist government.

I don't really understand what you are saying here? The crimes of the IDF are not Israels crimes? Are the crimes of Hamas not Hamas' crimes?

I'm not sure what the relevance of your last paragraph is? Does that make the IDFs rape, sexual assault and torture better or what are you trying to say?

Other forms of such violence, including rape and violence to the genitals, were "committed either under explicit orders or with implicit encouragement by Israel's top civilian and military leadership",

If these crimes are being committed under order or encouragement from civillian and military leadership are they really just 'the individuals' crimes?

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyr154314vo

Young and old die in war. True
Should they be directly targeted just because their country is at war?
Should more children than in any other recent war be killed?

Any rape/sexual crimes by Israel are also abhorrent. I would not be remotely suprised that such violence had occurred, or that there had been some cover ups by Israel.

im not sure what the point is? Thats part of the problem with the hysterical rhetoric about this.

Israeli soldiers I would expect have done lots of bad things. and they should be accountable for that - but that does not then mean that Israel should not take action to protect themselves against insane Islamic fundamentalists.

at the end of the day - Israel is a liberal democracy with flaws. The Palestinian movement has become effectively a front and outlet for violent islamic fundamentalists which has little to do with advancing the health and well being of civilian Palestinians.

the addition of trump into the mix is not a good thing for anyone

@EasterIssland it is not IDF policy to target young children in Gaza - altough there may indeed be horrific examples of this happening, which it should be accountable for

it IS hamas policy to target young children (and indeed hide behind their own children)

And where should the residents go when they receive a warning? Where? With what transport? With no fuel? To another bombed building with no water or food?
It’s a pathetic, thinly veiled cover. “Oh we told them to get out but they didn’t, so it is their own fault we killed them”. I have never heard anything so disingenuous, it is disgusting.

JeremiahBullfrog · Today 19:06

Taking sides on this issue is pathetic and immature. This isn't a football match. They're murderous twats, all of them.

I agree, they're two cheeks of the same unwiped arse. A pox on both of them.

I think we can all guess why.

But I’m just waiting for the cries of "whataboutery!" that emerge whenever anyone tries to point out how hypocritical many Palestinian-supporters are, and their double standards.

Unlike Israel government supporters that care loads about Sudan …

You know the level of debate is like talking to anti-vaxxers or flat earthers.

"The earth is round according to all these experts and scientists"
"Nah-ahh!! My best buddy said it's flat!!"

Israel is committing genocide according to the UN, Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, Prof.s Raz Segal, Omer Bartov, Amos Goldstein. That's 3 teams of legal experts. It is a fact. You can duck/dodge/weave all you like. The fact is Israel is committing genocide.

Israel is an Apartheid state, not a democracy, according to the UN, Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, ICJ, B'Tselem, Yesh Din, Nelson Mandela, Desmond Tutu... This is a fact. Like it or lump it, it's still a fact based on multiple teams of legal experts considering the evidence.

Now, on to how to stop our govt funding genocide and apartheid.

My point is that so much is made of how Israel have to bomb children in their beds to protect their people. Posters here are defending their right to bomb children in their beds because Hamas raped and killed. Well as we have ascertained the IDF also have a long history of raping and killing Palestinians yet where is the same outrage?

You yourself said how do you think that Israel can stop Hamas from doing what it did on October 7 again? in defence of children being bombed in their beds. I'm asking you would you be OK with Israeli children, 1000s of them being bombed because there is an IDF soldier in hospital, because there is an IDF soldier on the bus, because there is an IDF soldier living in their apartment block. Would you be here defending Palestinians right to do that?

You call it 'hysterical rhetoric' to highlight Palestinian women being raped and sexually tortured. You talk about a 'liberal democracy' with flaws like those flaws aren't systemic raping, torturing and killing of Palestinians. Why aren't we all 'hysterical' over that?

What's the word for Jewish extremists that spend their time burning down homes and mosques and calling for the death of Arabs? Where are you calling for Palestinians to take action against these 'insane' people. Again would you support small children being bombed in their beds because one of these extremists live in their apartment block?

Was taking sides on South African apartheid immature? Some parts of the ANC did some awful awful things, but we recognise now that the system of Apartheid itself was extremely violent and was the overall driver of the conflict.

Was taking sides in the black civil rights struggles immature, because there were some radical Black Panthers? Or do we realise now that the main driving force of the violence was white supremacy?

This is exactly the same, that's why most black South Africans support Palestinians. They see it for what it is.

All false which I have proven multiple times.
Children being locked up are aged 12-16 years. Israel is the only country to try kids in military jail (never mind 'civilised' country), the trials last about 5 min and the conviction rate is 98%. "A conveyor belt of children" in the words of one reporter. Stone-throwing gets 10-20 years. The 'evidence' is some soldier said so. Israeli soldiers regularly abuse the child hostages (UNICEF OPT child detainees 2013 Save the Children 2019)
Israeli children or adults who have chosen to live on stolen land in the occupied West Bank (just 22% of historic Palestine) do not get arrested for throwing stones. Or burning cars or houses. And if they do get arrested for anything, they are tried in civil court in Israel with parents and lawyers. Just one example of Israel's apartheid regime amply evidenced by the UN, Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, B'Tselem, Yesh Din

Israel defenders on here, I am still waiting for an answer to my very simple question.

Why is Israel still occupying the West Bank when it is ruled by a secular Palestinian govt (the PA) which renounced armed resistance 30 yrs ago and fought Hamas in 2006? Why has Israel not withdrawn the 700,000 settlers, stopped their soldiers killing unarmed Palestinian children (32 Jan-Sept 2023, 34 in 2022, etc for many years) and allowed the Palestinians to create a state on the teeny 22% of their historic country, in accordance with the Two State Solution which everyone supposedly supports?
That would defeat Hamas in one fell swoop.
Everyone here going "oh I'm no fan of the settlers" well what are you doing about them? Why are you choosing genocide instead of applying international law and withdrawing those religious extremist nutjobs?

@LoyalAquaOtter you’re hiding behind small children in your rhetoric in the same way as Hamas hide behind them literally.

hamas are evil psycopaths who want to kill all Jews in Israel and, with their Muslim brotherhood comrades, are quite keen to move on to killing all infidels.

it is no longer an issue of self determination for the Palestinian people at this point - but a question of destroying hamas.

it is horrific that hamas slaughter so many civilians and took civilians hostages. It’s horrific that they are failing to protect civilians in any way.

@ThisNattyTurtle how would withdrawing from the West Bank stop Hamas?

arenrt we talking about Gaza?

Firstly Israel is the only democratic state in the Middle East- Fact
Secondly - we need them more than they need us! We supply nothing to them that they can do without. Yet they supply expertise in IT and security which we can’t do without!

but .. the war does need to stop

Exactly. That’s the difference.