To be horrified that Israel is slaughtering children at a rate not seen for ober

[ThisNattyTurtle]

Israel killed more children in 15 months than were killed in all the conflicts of the world in the last 4 years combined. Israel is killing children again now at an unprecedented rate and the UK is supporting it with weapons, money and intelligence.
Israel is committing genocide according to the UN, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch. Israel killed 159 Palestinians, including children, during the ceasefire - only 1 Israeli was killed in that time and that was a soldier in a friendly fire event.

Mumsnet HQ there are at least 3 threads about Ukraine still on AIBU, and many other political ones. Please do not hide this topic away in the other section again without at least explaining why UK involvement in the mass slaughter of children is not worthy of the front page. We are supporting a regime much worse than Russia, as much as Russia's regime is awful.

Please can you translate the Hebrew?

Yaaa except there are lots of well documented reports of Israeli snipers and drones shooting unarmed children (majority 5-9 yrs old) in the head heart and chest. Nothing collateral about it. See the testimony of Jewish-American Dr. Mark Perlmutter who went to Gaza.

Also if Israel, which has the capacity to bomb a single apartment in a whole tower, chooses instead to used dumb 2000lb bombs not used since WWII and flatten entire multi-storey residential buildings at a time, that's slaughter.

This is on Hamas, release the hostages, disarm and hold free and fair elections. Israel should stop bombing and withdraw from all settlements, most Hamas prisoners shouldn't be released, but they should be allowed free, fair trials in a reasonable time frame.

I think its important to point out as well that during this 'ceasefire' just a week or so before Oct 7 Israel bombed Gaza. Also in same year Israel killed 100s of Palestinians including children. What makes Israeli children bring 'slaughtered' breaking a ceasefire but Israel dropping bombs and killing Palestinian children is just another day of ceasefire?

Who decided that killing Palestinian children during a ceasefire is ok and does that sound OK to you?

If what you say about Israeli snipers is true (and the children were targeted deliberately and were not being used as protection for Hamas fighters) of course I deplore it, but I dispute that is sanctioned by the IDF.

Has it occurred to you that Israel might not know exactly which apartment(s) were being used by Hamas? Or to ask why they were knowingly putting civilians in that apartment block in danger?

Yes to all of this. Perhaps the Palestinian supporters on here could say whether they also agree, and if not why not.

The UN, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch say this is genocide and that there is ample evidence of intent on behalf of the Israeli army to destroy an ethnic group in whole or in part by destroying the conditions necessary to support life. Flattening entire multi-storey residential buildings with 2000lb dumb bombs is not a normal modern war. Hamas offered a deal for all hostages 9th Oct.

There is no Hamas in the West Bank (in fact the secular PA renounced armed resistance 30 yrs ago and Hamas out) yet in the West Bank Israel kidnaps an avg of 700 children (12-16yrs) per year for decades before Hamas (UNICEF Child detainees OPT 2013). They are tried in a military court with 98% conviction rate with the most common conviction being for throwing stones (10-20yrs) and the next most common group held in administrative detention indefinitely (400 child hostages held by Israel Sept. 2023 B'Tselem).

The West Bank is where Israel shoots dead unarmed Palestinian children - 34 Jan-Sept 2023, 32 in 2022, similar numbers each year back for decades.

Before Hamas, an Israeli army captain emptied his rifle into a 13 yr old schoolgirl Iman Al-Hams. His own soldiers testified she was identified as no threat, the captain was fully acquitted. That was before Hamas.
Before Hamas Israeli soldiers bulldozed Rachel Corrie to death as she tried to stop the illegal demolition of Palestinian homes in Gaza.
Before Hamas Israeli snipers shot Tom Hurndall in the head as he tried to rescue Palestinian children.

Before Hamas. The facts are clear and the evidence abundant. No one is arguing in favour of Hamas and the constant reference to them is by way of obfuscation that this is genocide by Israel.

it means peace

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c985y78d0g1o

Israel managed to target one apartment here when they knew who lived there.

Belonging to a doctor who has criticised Israel online, her mother and her newborn twins all dead.

Should Israel also release the hostages they hold, including children? (400 child hostages Sept. 2023, many more since then). Should Israel maybe offer to stop abducting 700 children per year from the West Bank?
Should Israel maybe make some effort to stop shooting dead unarmed children in the West Bank?
Should Israel maybe stop practicing Apartheid? (Apartheid as per the UN, ICJ, HRW, Amnesty, B'Tselem, Yesh Din, etc etc etc)

You’re beyond naive if you think this is about the hostages

that’s the problem when you use so powerful weapons. That you kill the person you want to kill and all those around you. There are as well plenty of videos of people (elderlies , pregnant women, doctors) being targeted by snipers

Yes i do agree. That’s what phase 2 and phase 3 were meant for. But surprise surprise one of the parties didn’t want to progress to phase 2 insisted on staying on phase 1 and otherwise they’d bomb the opponent. And here we are nearly 1000 people have been killed in a few days

It’s pretty rude to accuse someone of being “beyond naive” just because you disagree with their opinion.

In reality, none of us know what Israel would do if the remaining hostages were returned. What we do know is the fact that Hamas hasn’t released them is not helping their cause. The remaining hostages no longer appear to be the bargaining chips Hamas envisioned when they kidnapped them.

So you don’t agree with what @ACynicalDad suggested. Thanks for making that clear.

What "child hostages" or "abducted children" does Israel hold? Do you mean teenagers who were committing violence If you do, I agree they should not be held without trial, but they are not "child hostages". I know nothing about "abducted children" but I have already said I agree Israel should withdraw from settlements.

@Greywhippet I think it's about a disgusting terrorist organisation who has a terrible grip on a population it won't let go of under any circumstances.

It’s naive to think it is just about land borders.

Jews want to live in peace — in the homeland of their families.

Most Jews in Israel are Levantine. Their roots are there. They’ve always been there.
Zion (Jerusalem ) is where prayers have been directed for thousands of years, just as Muslims face Mecca.

When Jews gather, whether in joy or in mourning, they sing:
Oseh Shalom Bimromav.
It’s a line from the Kaddish — an ancient prayer. For nearly 2,000 years, Jews have said these words.
Oseh shalom bimromav, Hu ya’aseh shalom aleinu, v’al kol Yisrael, v’al kol yoshvei tevel.
“May the One who makes peace in the heavens make peace for us, for all Israel, and for all who dwell on Earth.”

We pray for peace.

And yet, at some pro-Palestinian protests and in Gaza, sung by children we hear:
“Khaybar, Khaybar ya Yahud.”

A call not for peace, but for our destruction.
A 7th-century battle cry, revived with chilling clarity:
“Jews, remember Khaybar — your end is coming.”

This isn’t a cry for justice. It isn’t solidarity.
It’s not even just anti-Israel.
It’s anti-Jew.

I don’t believe this is truly about land.
If it were, peace might be possible.
But when ancient hatreds are shouted in the streets, and children are taught to sing about our deaths this isn’t about borders. It’s about religion. Because while we pray for peace, others are chanting for our death.

Do they want peace ? I’m not sure they do.

Well, if Hamas released the hostages we would all know for sure, wouldn't we?

No doubt you would maintain there’s no apartheid in the Arab countries surrounding Israel.

Could that possibly be because in the 20th century they drove out nearly all the Jews? https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/news/the-expulsion-of-jews-from-arab-countries-and-iran--an-untold-history#:~:text=Until%20the%201960s%2C%20approximately%20one,development%20of%20their%20respective%20countries.

Where there used to be about one million, there are now about 15,000.

In Israel, on the other hand, Arabs comprise over 20% of the population. So don’t talk to me about "apartheid"!

That's grim. You've just described peoples children as 'collateral'. I noted your use of 'slaughtered' vs 'killed' as well.

There's a huge difference, legally and ethically, between entering a civilian home with the intent to torture and murder its occupants, and the killlings of civilians during bombing of infrastructure during a war. And the term for those deaths is then collateral as they weren't the intended target.

https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_forces_fatally_shoot_two_young_palestinian_children_in_the_back_in_the_occupied_west_bank

Both of these children were shot in the back near a family home.

Is that ethical or legal?

"Fully proven and sourced" by people or organisations for whose opinions I don’t have much respect.

What organisations do you respect?

And one of the parties repeatedly turned the release of hostages into a despicable show of strutting terrorists and humiliation of the abducted people about to be freed.

There aren’t any hostages in the West Bank and we can all see what is happening there. There weren’t any hostages in Gaza in 2014 and we saw what happened then.