To be horrified that Israel is slaughtering children at a rate not seen for ober

[ThisNattyTurtle]

Israel killed more children in 15 months than were killed in all the conflicts of the world in the last 4 years combined. Israel is killing children again now at an unprecedented rate and the UK is supporting it with weapons, money and intelligence.
Israel is committing genocide according to the UN, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch. Israel killed 159 Palestinians, including children, during the ceasefire - only 1 Israeli was killed in that time and that was a soldier in a friendly fire event.

Mumsnet HQ there are at least 3 threads about Ukraine still on AIBU, and many other political ones. Please do not hide this topic away in the other section again without at least explaining why UK involvement in the mass slaughter of children is not worthy of the front page. We are supporting a regime much worse than Russia, as much as Russia's regime is awful.

I agree @TheSippyCupSociety I feel very sorry for the good people of Israel too. Maybe it's should be expressly stated more often but I think its implied that most people know it's the government, the current government, and not all the people. We say the 'Russians' did X or the 'USA' did Y but we know there are good people everywhere many who are very upset about what their representatives are saying or doing.

I agree with @TheSippyCupSociety that these threads can be harmful and hurtful. They can be educational as well but the trouble is too many people on them don’t want to have a balanced debate and want to simplify things too much. So on another thread that got deleted I was criticised for even mentioning Hamas attacks on October 7th because “this thread isn’t about that it’s about dead Palestinian babies”.

Yet the two things are very much related and the same people will then talk about things that happened years before October 7th with no one saying “this thread isn’t about that…” It’s like some don’t even want to admit that Hamas triggered these latest killings by their actions on October 7th 2023.

No Im not saying Netanyahu isn’t authorising evil things too & obviously he’s gone way too far now but it’s not as one- sided as some people present the situation on here.

There's one thing throughout this latest conflict I have never understood. Can anyone explain why it took one of the most sophisticated armies in the world hours to arrive on October 7th and then took days to retake the towns? I can understand ground fighting taking days to repel but I don't understand why it took the IDF so long to get there while it was happening ?

@ArtTheClownyes they’ve had over a year to give the hostages back.

@ArtTheClown I completely condemn Hamas and the taking of hostages is a war crime. In Sept. 2023 Israel was holding 400 Palestinian child hostages (see B'Tselem for numbers). Also 1000s of adult hostages (see Amnesty, HRW B'Tselem). And no I don't mean ones convicted of actual crimes, I mean children imprisoned for 'stone-throwing'. I completely condemn Hamas, do you condemn Israel's actions, which are evidenced by reputable NGOs? No? Why not?

Israel take their hostages from the West Bank which is ruled by the PA which renounced armed resistance 30 yrs ago and fought Hamas out of the West Bank.
Hamas offered all the hostages back Oct. 9th in exchange for the release of the Palestinian hostages and the ending of the siege on Gaza.

For those asking why I haven't posted about Hamas - my govt is not sending arms and money to Hamas (though Netanyahu was, as a deliberate strategy to undermine the PA and split the Palestinians - Google it!) my govt is sending money and arms to a genocide and I object, simples.

Israel was an apartheid state before Hamas (UN, ICJ, HRW, Amnesty, B'Tselem, Yesh Din). Israel killed unarmed Palestinian children before Hamas/in the West Bank with no Hamas, before Oct. 7th, link below. Israel killed Imam al-Hams and Tom Hurndall and Rachel Corrie and David Miller before Hamas. @ArtTheClown can you please ask Israel to stop its shit?

https://www.savethechildren.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases/2022/2022-becomes-the-deadliest-year-for-palestinian-children-in-the-west-bank-

I'm very happy to have a balanced debate. To me that means engaging in facts and sources though.
Simple question - what about the child killings and child abductions committed by Israel before Oct. 7th? 37 Israeli children unforgivably killed Oct. 7th (7 by Israeli fire as per UN/survivor testimony). 32 unarmed Palestinian children killed Jan-Sept 2023, 34 unarmed Palestinian children killed 2022. Etc for each of the years prior. Please, if you are in good faith, go to the B'Tselem website and look at their numbers. Please look at the reports by Save the Children and UNICEF (2019 ans 2013) on the Palestinian children aged 12-16 taken by Israel. I would really like to understand your perspective on these facts.

@ArtTheClown
"Hamas' whole MO though is to get as many people as possible killed, preferebly children, so they can film them in close-up detail and disseminate that on tiktok. Dead children are their propaganda fodder.
I don't understand why the OP isn't more incensed about that - all the rage appears directed at Israel. Why is that?"

Hamas wanted ceasefire talks, they engaged in ceasefire talks . Israel pulled out of the ceasefire talks and carpet bombed sleeping babies.

But Hamas wants them dead and it's not Israel's fault that babies are dying ( even though they are the ones dropping massive bombs on houses and hospitals)

Genuinely can you explain your thoughts to me.

It would seem both sides have used dead children as war propaganda.

This is the whataboutery you condemn in others but you change the subject whenever people mention October 7th atrocities.

I condemn the child killings & child abductions committed by Israel before October 7th.

Will you condemn the Hamas killing of nearly 2000 Israeli civilians on October 7th & kidnapping of civilians?

Do you say the same about Ukraine? No? Why not?
Israel has killed over 17,000 children (over 60,000 people) since Oct. 7th and killed avg. 30 children/yr pre Oct. 7th (see B'Tselem). 37 Israeli children were unforgivably killed on Oct. 7th. If you actually care equally about the children's lives, you should be much more outraged at the side that has killed so many more and that has returned to mass killing with our weapons and money.

The UN, Amnesty, HRW, have all called this a genocide. On what authority or based on what analysis of data are you ignoring their findings? Name one other conflict in which you have ignored their findings?
Israel is an Apartheid state according to the UN, ICJ, Amnesty, HRW, B'Tselem, Yesh Din... Why are you ok with the UK govt being bestest buddies with apartheid? Sending money, special trade privileges, shared sporting events - Apartheid is a crime against humanity.

Have you actually not read any of my other posts? I have condemned them countless times and will again. Yes I condemn what Hamas did on Oct. 7th. I didn't need to take action because my govt already did on my behalf. Hamas is already a sanctioned proscribed org.

However my govt supported Israel* while it committed apartheid* and child killings and abductions BEFORE OCT 7th. If you actually condemn the child killings by Israel - what action did you take? What action should our govt and the Israeli govt have taken?

Now that there is a genocide happening as per the UN, HRW, Amnesty, Prof..raz Segal - do you accept the UK govt continuing to send money and arms to an apartheid, child killing and abducting, genocidal Israeli govt?? (Each word fully proven and sourced). If you do support that, can you help me understand why?

I’ve read many of your other posts, obviously not all of them.

Thank you for clarifying that you do condemn what Hamas did on October 7th I haven’t actually noticed you acknowledging evil on both sides before. But I feel we all should be acknowledging that.

The rest of your question seem inflammatory and unnecessarily personal re my own actions and I think whatever I reply will be wrong in your eyes. I don’t want to get drawn into anything nasty so I’ll decline to comment on that.

We are not talking about Ukraine. Not sure what the rest of the rant was about? That's the second time you've launched into me for saying barely anything. What on earth are you talking about?

@TheSippyCupSociety I agree it's not all the people of Israel, I use 'Israel' for brevity. However it is actually a significant majority of Israeli society and it is not just the current govt. 10 years ago video leaked of a Member of Knesset cheering on her 5 yr old when he said he wanted to join the army so he could 'drive a jeep and kill Arabs'. Google it. She's still a bloody member of Knesset!

2009 the Israeli army had T-shirts showing a pregnant Arab in rifle cross hairs, caption "2 shots 1 kill". And another with an Arab baby "the smaller the target the harder the kill". See link below.

Israelis freely, democratically elected Ariel Sharon as PM 10 years after the UN found him culpable for the Sabra and Shatila massacres. It was an Israeli who killed Simon Peres when he made peace progress with Arafat. Israeli PM Menachem Begin was a a terrorist from the Irgun militia directly involved in the King David hotel bombing.

I have Israeli friends. One of them is anti-racist and anti-apartheid. Another is a lovely person, gives to charities that help Palestinians, but has views on them like that of racist Boers in the 80s or Americans in the Jim Crow South. Racism and colonialist ideology is not uncommon in Israeli society, and it needs to change, just like Apartheid and just like Jim Crow.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7960071.stm

Apologies, let me depersonalise it. What actions should our govt be taking against a genocidal apartheid govt which Israel has been found to be by 3 major NGOs?
Should the UK govt continue to send arms and money?

For those saying I am only presenting one side here - yes, I am, because the other side is widely widely presented in the Houses of Parliament, the BBC, Sky etc.
I am presenting data from NGOs including Israeli ones that I believe most British people are unaware of regarding the behaviour of a country we give money and weapons and full political support.

I am presenting the evidence from the UN, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch, which is not presented on the BBC, that Israel is an Apartheid state committing genocide and currently killing a lot of children every night, and I think we should stop sending money and weapons to it until it reforms its behaviour.

Genuinely can you explain your thoughts to me.

My thoughts are that anyone who thinks Hamas has the interest of Gazans at heart is astonishinly naive. They have a specific goal, the destruction of Israel. A few tens of thousands of Gazan deaths are of no concern, or more likely, a net positive, as they're fantastic propaganda.

It would seem both sides have used dead children as war propaganda.

Do you mean the children killed in the 7 October attack? Because it's not a like-for-like comparison. Those children were slaughtered during a ceasefire, not killed as collatoral in conflict.

Perhaps we shouldn't think of it as two sides but 4. The Israeli Government which is beyond question committing genocide. Hammas, which is undoubtedly a terrorist organisation carrying out horrendous acts. The ordinary Palestinian people against whom genocide is being committed and the ordinary Israeli people, some of whom will support what his happening, many of whom won't.

I agree with others there's a difference between my responsibility to speak up when a terrorist organisation commits attricoticies and when the Government of my country funds genocide.

There are peaceful solutions. I remember how unimaginable the NI peace treaty felt until it happened. Genocide is not an effective way to resolve terrorism and the more people say its OK because Hamas or blame Islam the more young people will be radicalised.

That's grim. You've just described peoples children as 'collateral'. I noted your use of 'slaughtered' vs 'killed' as well.

What are the women and girls being raped and sexually tortured by the IDF? Are they 'collateral' to you too?

And in countries with a high proportion of children in the civilian population, children will suffer disproportionately.

Shame Hamas didn’t think about that before precipitating this war, or before spending all that effort and money on tunnels where they can hide relatively safe from bombing but civilians (including children) can't.

Yes. Yahya Sinwar called them "necessary sacrifices".
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/06/11/hamas-leader-yahya-sinwar-depicts-palestinian-casualties-as-necessary-sacrifices/

The IDF do not deliberately target civilians. Hamas do deliberately target civilians.
That is the difference.
As has been seen, there is no negotiation or peace with the medieval thinking Islamists. Therefore Israel are right to defend themselves. Hamas can stop the civilian deaths by moving into unpopulated areas, but that doesn’t perpetuate the bleeding heart stories.
If Hamas moved to an unpopulated area, and the IDF continued to bomb in populated civilian areas, I would also be outraged. But that’s not the situation.
לֵךְ לְשָׁלוֹם

In the 'ceasefire' before Oct. 7th 32 unarmed Palestinian children had been killed in the West Bank (not Hamas) Jan-Sept 2023. 34 unarmed Palestinian children had been killed by Israel in the West Bank 2022 (see Save the Children warning re: child deaths OPT). The same each years for many years (see the numbers on B'Tselem site)
On Oct. 7th 37 Israeli children were unforgivably killed in a war crime by Hamas, with evidence that at least 7 of them were killed by Israeli army fire (see Yasmin Porat survivor interview Israeli radio - she describes the Israeli army shelling a kibbutz house with 12 hostages including a 13 yr old girl, to take out one Hamas. It's called the Hannibal directive).
So - where was the ceasefire, for Palestinians?

The difference between "killed" and "slaughtered" is the difference between accepting that innocent children will die when terrorists in civilian areas are targeted by rockets etc., and close-up deliberate shooting of children (including babies in their cots) in civilian homes with no military connections or presence at all, simply because of their religion or nationality.

Both are terrible, but I can see the moral difference even if you can't.