For telling my friend she was ridiculous to bring a 7 year old for a spa day!

[Senuousnotsensuous]

My friend Emily has a 7 year old daughter Milly who she brings every time we meet up either when it’s just the two of us or with a group of our other friends.

Emily insists Milly wants to come but it’s frustrating as we can never have a conversation without her giving her opinion or Milly takes over and Emily sits smiling proudly, she often comments on her daughter’s maturity and how she loves joining us.

We do occasionally get time when Milly is at school but any weekend meet ups are the same, Milly could stay with her dad at home but apparently gets very upset when she’s not invited so Emily gives in and lets her come. We have had a few occasions where we have met up in restaurants for a meal in the evenings and Milly has often made an appearance, the whole evening ends up revolving round her.

My other friends said they were fed up with this as well, we stopped inviting Emily as often but she noticed and was hurt.
I managed to get her to meet me one to one and asked if she was being persuaded by her husband to bring Milly and said I was concerned that she never seemed to get time to herself, she insisted that wasn’t the case and said she thought we loved seeing Milly.
I explained that no one else brought their kids along and wanted adult time and as much as we liked Milly it’s frustrating to get childcare for other kids for a childfree evening then Milly being allowed to come.
Its not fair on the other kids and changes the dynamic and means Emily has to leave early. We are sick of censoring the conversation and being unable to talk freely.
Emily agreed to stop bringing Milly along unless other kids were going to be present.

A few weeks ago we booked a spa day for today for 3 of us and Emily.
The package included a 25 minute massage treatment each and use of the facilities for 3 hours and afternoon tea with Prosecco.
I didn’t think not to ask Emily not to bring Milly as surely it’s common sense?!

Well the spa was booked for 10am and Emily brought Milly. We asked her how she possibly thought this would work and she said Milly wanted to use the pool and we could watch her when Emily had her massage.
Emily was told by staff she couldn’t being Milly into the spa and got very upset and complained that she’d paid for the day, her husband refused to pick her up saying he’d agreed to work overtime now, Milly started crying hysterically.

I had no sympathy and told Emily one of the reasons we booked a spa day was in the hope of actually spending time with her alone and we never considered she’d bring Milly. My other friends were equally as unsympathetic and said she had brought this on herself and it was her own fault Milly was upset and if lost the money.

Emily had to leave with Milly and looked absolutely devastated, she didn’t apologise though she just kept saying how ridiculous it was that the spa wouldn’t let Milly in or make any exceptions.

After she left we all agreed it was time to stop inviting Emily anywhere as she obviously wasn’t going to stop bringing Milly, we were throughly pissed off about the whole thing.

One friend has just sent me a message saying Emily has been crying down the phone for hours on her and thinks we were maybe a bit harsh and that Emily said she finds it hard to leave Milly because she gets so upset when she can’t come along. She thinks we should apologise for getting so frustrated with her today.

I think the whole situation is fucking bizarre and if Emily was a struggling single parent I could maybe understand it, I have had enough though and I’m not apologising, I have tried to chat about it but she’s not willing to listen.

AIBU for not being more understanding? It’s not just me, my other friends feel the same, even the friend who thinks we should apologise said she thinks it’s best we no longer invite Emily.
I don’t think Emily is ever going to take in what we are saying and she will keep bringing Milly because she can’t say no to her.

When my siblings and I were small, our family was hard-working, happy but poor. my mum and her friends couldn’t afford to go out to bars or restaurants or spas, their socialising was all going round one or another’s house with a couple of bottles of very cheap wine. When they came to our house, we were given the talk. We were told ‘this is Mum time, where Mum gets to spend private time with her friends and relax’. We had to go play upstairs in our bedrooms with the doors shut. They wanted to gossip between themselves and about other people and they didn’t want us over hearing it and spreading it around the playground quite rightly so. I grew up with those rules and never once did my siblings or I feel excluded, we understood perfectly that my mum was entitled to her private time with her friends the same way that we were. we just went to our rooms and played. Children accept rules if they are enforced. I just don’t understand how anyone cannot see how bringing their child changes the dynamics of the adult group. It’s totally unacceptable in my view. I had a friend who did exactly this and after a few times. I explained to her that my self-employed husband had given up an evenings work to come home to babysit our child so that I could come round to hers for private time so I’d appreciate it if she could make arrangements for her little one. it didn’t go down, we fell out and that was the end of our friendship. I don’t regret it. It was utterly selfish of her. she could’ve done exactly what I did. Her husband was available and would’ve been happy to entertain the little one. When she came to mine, my husband entertained my little one upstairs until he put him to bed. I had precious little child free time in which I got to be me, a grown-up, the last thing I wanted to do was spend the evening with a little one interrupting every two minutes to show me her toys or her new fairy dress or asking what that word meant or who that person was that we were talking about. I hated it.

How had she paid for millie, when children aren't allowed?
I don't believe even 'Emily' would expect a free spa day!?

A question for those of you saying, it can't possibly be the husband at fault.

If the husband was refusing to do child care, how would this playout differently?

Yes he has said "you should go out without Milly" but we all know abusers can lie and will behave differently in public to in private.
Yes she has said there is isn't a problem but we all know victims of abuse do not always admit it.
If it should be obvious to Emily that you can't have a 7 year old at a spa why shouldn't it be obvious to him as well. Or is that knowledge only available to women.

I am not saying he is to blame but the way see it, he isn't helping the situation.
I don't know why it is so clear he isn't part of the problem.

It’s a No from me. I had a friend who was like this and ended up at a hen do with her 7 year old. 7 year old held court for hours talking about school and toys and her friends with Mum glowing and saying that she was now “one of the girls”. Eventually she was set straight by the sister of the bride. It caused a lot of upset but we’d all been putting up with this for years and it was intolerable.

Friend basically refused to come out with us again if child wasn’t invited and so that put an end to the friendship as we weren’t prepared to have a 7 year old bestie.

Don’t back down or apologise. Men would absolutely never think to behave like this and women get guilted into being soppy because we’re supposed to want to nurture and love all children. It’s OK and normal for us to want time as adults!

I have a 'friend' who insists on bringing her dog everywhere. I am mildly allergic, so when she continued to bring said dog, I stopped inviting her.

Disagree - I can see entirely how this situation has happened. “I’m going out with the girls with Milly, I’ll take her swimming stuff because we’re going to the pool.”

Emily had a whole idea in her head of how it was going to work, I expect that’s what she said to her husband.

Why does everything on MN have to become the man's fault?

OP - 'Our friend is an idiot and we're really annoyed with her'
MN - 'She must be being abused'

If Emily doesn’t have child care be it her husband parents or childminder then she can’t go on the spa day.

whether to husband is a possible abuser for not looking after Emily is not the issue.

im a single parent and had elderly parents who could not help with child care. I missed group nights out, holidays, spa days, hen weekends but I never thought oh it’s okay I’ll take my kids along with me.

Mother and daughter are both emotional blackmailers and up to now it’s worked for both of them😐

If OP and her friends want to stop inviting Emily, surely they can just do that. Why do they need to stoop to Mean Girls pre-teen level and block?

Emily will know why she's being avoided and, who knows, in time may see sense about this, and that would allow bridges to be built. Blocking is the thermonuclear option with a side order of juvenile on top.

I simply cannot bear this style of pathetic, weak willed parenting. It's incredibly tedious and also highly damaging to the child.

One of your most important tasks as a good parent is to teach your child how to behave appropriately in social settings. To make them socially adept, as it were.

Instead, Emily is teaching Milly to be an irritating, precocious pain in the arse who no one likes.

She has already failed as a parent.

I've come across this before, where people think their dc is so mature because they prefer adults or playing with older children.
The sad thing is that it's actually a sign of social immaturity because older children and adults make allowances that peers don't. Because parents think this is a great thing, they encourage it, and it increases the difference between their child's social ability and their peers.
Sometimes they think their peers are being mean because they don't make allowances like the older ones do, and feel picked on.

It's a difficult one (one of mine was like this) because what is easiest (and at the time feels best) for your child is not the best in the long run.
I'd also say it's sometimes a sign of ASD traits in girls. By no means always, and that is not meant to be any attempt of saying Milly is; I don't think there sounds like anything other than the word "no" missing from her vocabulary. But the lack of social maturity girls with ASD can have, combined with that they do want friendships, can mean they gravitate to older girls who don't snub them like their peers.

I actually think the pp may have a point. I was that kid and it was easier for me to hang out with the adults. I am ND and my DH, who defo has some traits, was pretty much the same, it's not a good dynamic looking back.

It's not good for the kid and the parent really needs to deal with it.

Wash your hands of them. You’ve tried to be deal with it kindly, with no luck, so it’s time to walk away.

Emily’s parenting is awful, and poor Milly is going to grow into an absolutely hideous teenager at this rate. Get out now.

For the posters blaming the dad i think its a case of what mum says goes.

It sounds like your friend has some serious enmeshment issues with her daughter. She needs some therapy, but probably won't stop bringing her daughter along to everything until she does, because she can't see why it's inappropriate.

Either that, or there is some kind of domestic issue at home that she doesn't want to reveal.

This is not the dads fault if he had arranged to work, on the basis his wife was out with their daughter. You can't just cancel a day in work / shift on the day, because your wife fucked up her spa day arrangements. I'd refuse to pick up my child in those circumstances and face getting into trouble at work just so my husband could socialise with his friends.

Emily's relationship with Milly is not at all healthy. As a parent you're supposed to be able to say no to things that are not healthy or appropriate for your child, or you. Even when it upsets them. Milly clearly thinks she is 'grown up'...what happens when she wants to drink wine / wear makeup / drivw a car like mummy? I imagine she will be told 'no that's not for children'. So her mum can say no to her, she just chooses not to because it's easier for her than dealing with a tantrum. Really not healthy

Here you go; it goes on for a couple of threads. Proper cheeky fuckery!

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2998359-AIBU-You-dont-bring-a-toddler-to-a-hen-do?postsby=whyhastherumgone&page=2

Bananas innit.

And honestly what difference does it actually make? Do women just have to happily accept that they’re not entitled to any adult time on the off chance that their friends might have abusive husbands? Does OP just have to accept Milly’s attendance forevermore? Does the spa have to bend its rules to allow children in?

Friends need to be there for a friend who is suffering abuse but that doesn’t mean being a pushover and tolerating all their meet ups being ruined and their friend acting like an absolute prat on the phone.

You did the right thing by meeting with her and being honest about how you all feel. Now she is just taking the piss. She needs to set firmer boundaries with her daughter. She should work harder to maintain her friendships aside from her children because Millie will likely find her own friends when she is old enough to and not find it as interesting to be around her Mum. Emily will be left with no friends once Millie has flown the nest because she gave into Millie's every demand.

I think you shot yourself in the foot by giving Emily a lecture when it was totally unnecessary and now you’ve given her the chance to focus on how you and the other friends treated her, rather than leaving her in the position where the truth - that it was a ridiculous idea to bring Milly - was what she really needs to think about.

I’m going to go against the trend here and say I think you might owe her an apology for the way you handled it. She owes you an apology for ever bringing Milly in the first place, but this is a situation where she has a serious problem to do with herself, Milly or her DH (or all 3), and you have a minor social annoyance that a fun friend is spoiling the fun, which you’ve already shown you can cope with by being upfront with her.

Too easy to blame the dad. The woman who did it on our night out husbands was at home with other children.
Her 4 year old just wanted to come and because she is clearly thick as shit she said yes.
I know this because she was asked why she had brought a child to an adult evening at 7.30 at night. The restaurant told the person who made the booking that there was a no children policy.

It was deeply irritating for the woman who booked it and she was not included in the next evening. The woman who booked said she had zero interest in spelling out basic manners to people and l agreed with her as did others.

I don’t see that he is directly the problem (abusive, coercive - we can’t possibly make those inferences), but he can see the way Emily is mothering their child and if, as mentioned, he has encouraged her to go out without her he is aware of the issue.

I read this as his facilitating it, possibly because his work is such that, when mum goes out for the day on a Saturday, he is able to pick up extra work. The enmeshment suits him so he is not stepping up and making Emily aware that her relationship is unhealthy. Perhaps it crept up on him - she may have had PND or perhaps, given there is only one child, there were fertility issues etc which often leads to over dependency and make normalising ‘excluding’ the father seem natural (or makes him feel he can’t push back).

I think my reading is not so much that he is necessarily at fault, but that the whole family dynamic seems unhealthy - hence the need for family counselling to support them into detaching mum/daughter and scaffolding Millie into independent adulthood.

But her husband’s actions aren’t the ones discussed here. Whether he is abusive or not is not the topic. From what OP has said, it is Emily not understanding that her fiends don’t want children there and it Emily throwing tantrums at the spa for now allowing children. This is about Emily and her attitude towards her friends.

That's insane.

I was more thinking about a hotel where the drunken hens could be kept well away from the baby. Not what is essentially a big house.

I do get lots of mums find it really hard to be away from their baby but 2 isn't really baby stage.

And back to this thread I can totally imagine Emily to be the mum who takes her baby on a hen do.