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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

NHS England to go is Keir being unreasonable?

479 replies

43percentburnt · 13/03/2025 11:25

I don’t work for the NHS but have friends who do (and are increasingly looking at leaving - in some cases to move abroad).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cx29lrl826rt

Is the removal of NHS England a good thing? Or is this a Labour gimmick?

To include an Aibu for Keir -

Yes Keir - you are being unreasonable

Or

Good job Keir, please get rid of NHS England - you are NOT being unreasonable

Keir Starmer scraps NHS England to bring health service back under 'democratic control' - live updates

The PM says abolishing "the arms-length body" will reduce duplication and save money that can then be spent on frontline services.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cx29lrl826rt

OP posts:
Umbrella15 · 17/03/2025 00:26

43percentburnt · 13/03/2025 11:33

My gut feeling is that he is being reasonable but it’s not a sector I know enough about. But I am concerned about people being made redundant. My friends are all medics trained in the UK in the 90s and early 2000s so I doubt will be affected by this negatively. But most are very unhappy and looking to leave / move abroad.

I do wonder if the people working there will just be swallowed up into gov positions and this is a gimmick as he has set up 27 quangos since election!

Sorry about the poll not showing , not sure how to fix that.

Why are your medic friends leaving the country because of this ?. I work for the nhs, and it wont affect front line staff, its the office managers that will be going. The people that make medical decisons, when they dont have medical degrees or any experience or actully working on the ward, and has made the nhs a company that makes patients just numbers on a conveyer belt.

blueIKEAbag · 17/03/2025 07:25

You can tell who the posters are on this thread who have no idea what NHS England does, and no idea about running health services at at.

Phrases like bloated, too many meetings, hot air, too many managers, waste of time, give control back to the frontline etc. They’re lazy, dangerous headline platitudes.

As PP has mentioned, to extend the military metaphor, would we want our ‘frontline’ military personnel running the whole operation for the theatre of war? The supply chain, engineering, training, logistics, intelligence, welfare, planning etc? Really? Exactly.

So why are we happy with so many laypeople saying that this is how the NHS should be run?

madamweb · 17/03/2025 07:36

blueIKEAbag · 17/03/2025 07:25

You can tell who the posters are on this thread who have no idea what NHS England does, and no idea about running health services at at.

Phrases like bloated, too many meetings, hot air, too many managers, waste of time, give control back to the frontline etc. They’re lazy, dangerous headline platitudes.

As PP has mentioned, to extend the military metaphor, would we want our ‘frontline’ military personnel running the whole operation for the theatre of war? The supply chain, engineering, training, logistics, intelligence, welfare, planning etc? Really? Exactly.

So why are we happy with so many laypeople saying that this is how the NHS should be run?

Some of us have encountered the bloat though. So many meetings I sat through with an utterly mind boggling number of managers from different strands of NHSE/ICBs so nothing ever got decided. And this was for one simple transaction.

Walkaround · 17/03/2025 08:02

Still, it’s not a good idea to fix bloating by entirely removing the digestive system.

BIossomtoes · 17/03/2025 09:11

would we want our ‘frontline’ military personnel running the whole operation for the theatre of war? The supply chain, engineering, training, logistics, intelligence, welfare, planning etc

You do know that’s exactly how the armed services operate?

Chelsea2026 · 17/03/2025 09:30

I read that Wes Streeting is planning the abolition of Hundreds of health related quangos - who do people think are on the hit list?

Melcl1987 · 17/03/2025 09:33

madamweb · 17/03/2025 07:36

Some of us have encountered the bloat though. So many meetings I sat through with an utterly mind boggling number of managers from different strands of NHSE/ICBs so nothing ever got decided. And this was for one simple transaction.

Having worked in trusts and nhs england i am not going to argue pointless meetings don't happen but they happened just as much in the private sector organisations I have worked for including some of the tech firms this government seems obsessed with.

BIossomtoes · 17/03/2025 09:43

Chelsea2026 · 17/03/2025 09:30

I read that Wes Streeting is planning the abolition of Hundreds of health related quangos - who do people think are on the hit list?

There aren’t hundreds of health related quangos to abolish. I suspect what you’ve actually read - like me - is the intention to reduce the number of regulatory bodies through merger and transfer of responsibility. The previous government constantly talked about reducing red tape and did nothing.

Chelsea2026 · 17/03/2025 09:45

BIossomtoes · 17/03/2025 09:43

There aren’t hundreds of health related quangos to abolish. I suspect what you’ve actually read - like me - is the intention to reduce the number of regulatory bodies through merger and transfer of responsibility. The previous government constantly talked about reducing red tape and did nothing.

A group of industry regulators are to meet the chancellor on Monday to discuss how they can help speed up economic growth.
Rachel Reeves is expected to use the meeting to outline more details about cutting the cost of regulation, including environmental measures, as well as scrapping some bodies in their entirety.
Her actions come as the government seeks to reduce bureaucracy, and follows Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer's announcement last week that NHS England would be abolished.
The Conservatives said Labour's taxes and trade union red tape were harming growth and called on Reeves to set out a "real plan".
Ahead of the meeting, Reeves said. "By cutting red tape and creating a more effective system, we will boost investment, create jobs and put more money into working people's pockets."
The meeting follows the government abolishing NHS England, the world's biggest quango - short for a quasi-autonomous non-governmental organisation - last week.
Eight regulators will meet the chancellor on Monday.
These will include Natural England - the government's adviser for the natural environment in England - and the Environment Agency, which is responsible for regulating land and water pollution as well as overseeing conservation and ecology.
Changes expected to be announced include streamlining the environmental regulatory process for major projects including Lower Thames Crossing (subject to planning approval) and future ones such as a Heathrow expansion.
Environmental guidance, including hundreds of pages on bats, is expected to be reviewed, while environmental permits for some low-risk and temporary projects will be removed.
This plan comes alongside 60 measures agreed upon by watchdogs "following weeks of intense negotiations" that are designed to make it easier to do business in the UK.
Those measures include:
Fast-tracking new medicines through a pilot to provide parallel authorisations from healthcare regulators
Reviewing the £100 cap on individual contactless payments
Simplifying mortgage lending rules to make it easier to re-mortgage with a new lender and reduce mortgage terms
Setting up a 'concierge service' to help international financial services firms navigate regulations
Civil Aviation Authority permitting at least two more large drone-flying trials for deliveries in the coming months - which the government said has already cut travel times for blood samples between hospitals from 30 minutes down to two minutes
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury, Emma Reynolds, told BBC Breakfast: "We want to ensure that there is less duplication in the system. That means that we shouldn't have the layering upon layering of regulation."
In abolishing NHS England last week, politicians said they wanted to "scrap duplication and give more power and tools to local leaders" so they can better deliver for their communities.
Health Secretary Wes Streeting said the move was the "beginning not the end" and he wants to slim down bloated bureaucracy, meaning more quangos could go.
The government has already announced plans to fold another quango, the Payments Systems Regulator, into the Financial Conduct Authority.
On Monday, Reeves will announce the abolition of a third - the Regulator for Community Interest Companies, which will be folded into Companies House.
The chancellor has promised to significantly cut the number of regulators by the end of the Parliament.
Shadow Chancellor Mel Stride said that Labour's taxes and trade union red tape were preventing businesses from focusing on growth.
"Rachel Reeves has nine days until her emergency budget, where the Conservatives are calling on her to set out a real plan for growth," Stride said.
Dr Roger Barker, policy director at the Institute of Directors, said it was "appropriate for the government to rebalance its approach with a pro-business orientation at its core" as "compliance with burdensome regulation is frequently cited by IoD members as one of the top factors having a negative effect on their businesses."
Mark Allan, chief executive of commercial property firm Landsec, said: "We have been through a period over many years of having regulation laid on top of existing regulation."
While moves by the government were "very positive", he added that "we're starting from quite a low base, so to me this is more of a three-year project than a three-month project before we start to see that coming through."
More on this story

NHS sign

NHS England: Why world's biggest quango is being axed

There are three main reasons body is going - money, bureaucracy and control, says Nick Triggle

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c93nvvw1x20o

Chelsea2026 · 17/03/2025 09:49

Writing in the Telegraph, external, Streeting suggested scrapping NHS England was "the beginning, not the end" and said he would continue "slashing bloated bureaucracy".
The health secretary tasked Penny Dash, who was made chairman of NHS England at the start of this month, with carrying out a review of bureaucracy.
Some of the organisations overseen by the Department for Health include Care Quality Commission, the UK Health Security Agency and the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence.
Beneath those is a patchwork of smaller public bodies on a regional and local level.
Speaking to the BBC, Streeting would not be drawn on which bureaucratic NHS organisations he would consider axing, but suggested there was "an overregulation" of NHS services.
He said NHS frontline leaders have told him "they are often receiving a barrage of commands - sometimes contradictory and competing demands - from the Department for Health, from NHS England and from the wide range of regulators in this space".
He said simplification would set the NHS up to succeed and he was "going after the bureaucracy, not the people who work in it".
He added: "Of course, I can't sugar coat the fact that there will be a significant number of job losses and we will want to make sure we are treating people fairly, supporting them properly through that process."

BIossomtoes · 17/03/2025 09:58

Thank you for providing the proof of what I said. The word “hundreds” doesn’t appear anywhere in any context.

Hermit74 · 17/03/2025 10:28

Ummm, officers might beg to differ

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 17/03/2025 10:41

What has actually been said is that 9000 out of the 15300 jobs will be abolished. The rest will continue as they are really necessary, and be brought into the Department of Health. People will continue to whine about bureaucracy though, as they don’t know what they’re on about. Rather like the “immigrants “ debate.

There will also be a review of so called ‘quangos”, semi-public administrative bodies outside the civil service but part funded by it and often appointing (or even supplying) the senior officials.

I hope they’ve done a bloody good review of what does need to be kept, although I doubt it. It all seems a bit hasty, in response to the need to find funds.

BIossomtoes · 17/03/2025 12:57

Hermit74 · 17/03/2025 10:28

Ummm, officers might beg to differ

They can differ as much as they like, not that they would. Every single member of the armed forces, regardless of their specialty be it logistics, engineering or even catering is capable and expected to fight if necessary. Obviously that includes officers.

Hermit74 · 17/03/2025 13:00

And as an ICB member, I have worked on the front line in the hospitals when sickness bugs run rife

Chelsea2026 · 17/03/2025 13:14

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 17/03/2025 10:41

What has actually been said is that 9000 out of the 15300 jobs will be abolished. The rest will continue as they are really necessary, and be brought into the Department of Health. People will continue to whine about bureaucracy though, as they don’t know what they’re on about. Rather like the “immigrants “ debate.

There will also be a review of so called ‘quangos”, semi-public administrative bodies outside the civil service but part funded by it and often appointing (or even supplying) the senior officials.

I hope they’ve done a bloody good review of what does need to be kept, although I doubt it. It all seems a bit hasty, in response to the need to find funds.

Found this old Adam Smith article that labour seem to be using as a basis for the changes - The DHSC is Structural Lunacy
The Department of Health and Social Care (DHSC) has three responsibilities: personal health treatment and care (the NHS), public health and adult social care. One of its 15 (or so) arm’s length bodies (ALBs or quangos) addresses public health. Local authorities also have responsibility for public health which works well but Covid exposed problems with the DHSC messing up, for example, “Test and Trace” activities which local authorities could have done better. None of the quangos, apart from some quality control via the Care Quality Commission (CQC), address adult social care. That is funded by the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities. In other words, all bar one of the 15 DHSC quangos are focused on the NHS.
That may explain a lack of balance in the attention given by the DHSC. For example, the Health and Social Care Levy Act was packaged for PR purposes as being for both but in reality the extra £12bn, or what was left after HMRC have first helped themselves, will all go to the NHS and social care will get none of it. The Prime Minister’s claim that the money was “hypothecated” in this way is a similar nonsense as HM Treasury does not hypothecate taxes – they all go in the general spending pot. It sounded good though.
The NHS has a voracious appetite for the taxpayer’s hard earned money. “In 2018/19 prices, health expenditure in England increased from £30.2 billion in 1979/80 to £130.3 billion in 2018/19”, i.e. by 4.3 times in real terms. The King's Fund predicts it will grow by another £32.4bn in real terms in the further four years to 2022/3 and that is just in England. The simple truth is that NHS expenditure is out of control and the Prime Minister thinks he can win the next election by throwing ever more money at it.
The NHS is thought to be the fifth largest employer in the world and, with 1.2M staff in England, by far the largest in this country. Only about half are clinical staff, e.g. doctors or nurses. In fact, the CEO of NHS England has just 9,877 staff reporting to her (December 2021 data). That is because both the secondary (hospitals and consultants) and primary care (GPs and their surgeries) service providers are independent contractors, at least in theory. Secondary care is mostly provided by 223 trusts, mainly hospitals, each of which has layers of boards and management.
Almost all organisations have two types of structure reporting to the CEO: line and staff. The line executives are responsible for achieving the organisation’s goals and the staff functions, such as legal, IT, human resources, support the line. In the DHSC, however, there are 12 quangos that should be staff functions within NHS England or the CQC or merged or abolished: Health & Social Care Information Centre (IT department), Health Education England (training department), Health Research Authority (duplicates Medical Research Council), the Medicines & Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency and the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence should merge (essentially the buying department, checking efficacy, maximising value for money and rationing to meet budgetary concerns), the Human Tissue Authority and NHS Blood & Transplant should merge (spare parts department), Human Fertilisation & Embryology Authority (merge with CQC – why should the regulation of this set of treatments be treated differently?).
Monitor and the NHS Trust Development Authority became part of NHS Improvement in April 2016 but no one seems to have told its respective 82 and 1,583 employees (December 2021 data). NHS Improvement was merged with NHS England on 1st April 2019 and are supposedly one organisation, but each still has a separate board, chairman and non-executive directors.
NHS Litigation Authority is the legal department and should report to the CEO of NHS England. It is a clear guide to the standards and competence of primary and secondary care. NHS Business Services Authority is the “everything else” department which, apart from central buying (probably its key role) provides a wide variety of other functions, most of them probably unnecessary. They must be very busy as its 3,660 staff have not been able to produce an annual report since 2018/19 and the 3,502 DHSC staff have also been too busy to notice.
Frankly, the DHSC quangos are a shambles. The above listing is based on the December 2021 payroll but other lists they publish differ, e.g. the list updated to 10th February 2022, the same week as the payroll data used above. Is the Health & Social Care Information Centre (3,987 staff) the same as NHS Digital and NHSX? They certainly manage to mess up every major IT project they handle. Contracting the work out must be a better option. The payroll listing of quangos failed to mention that the NHS Counter Fraud Authority (NHSCFA - internal audit) has 166 employees. £54M was saved against a target of £50M, clearly a good result especially in the context of the complexity of the quango. Finding thieves and banging them up is not a complex business (I write as someone who became a Chartered Accountant 59 years ago) but the 130 page NHSCFA 2020/21 annual report certainly makes it look that way.
Rationalising the quangos and turning NHS England into a conventional organisational structure driven by medical professionals apart, there is one further key transformation needed. The NHS thinks it needs ever more money to do ever more things. Pursuing that strategy will make it unaffordable. It needs to focus on what only it can do and leave the rest to others who can do it better (and cheaper). Essentially the NHS hospitals should concentrate only on personal treatment and cure. It does not need to serve as a hospice where death is inevitable nor mess with public health which other parts of the DHSC and local authorities handle.
It needs to turn over responsibility for the middle sector, i.e. between primary and secondary (major hospital) care, to social care, supported as needed by the primary sector. For example, births, convalescence, minor operations and the things that cottage hospitals used to do and some still do. Given a choice between three days in our local cottage hospital and in the major acute hospital 25 miles away, most of us opt for the local unit. The point, of course, is that the cost per stay in a medically supported nursing home is far lower than that in an acute hospital. This is not just a matter of bed unblocking, though that would benefit too, but of tailoring the NHS to maximise value for money.
Anyway, the point of this post is that NHS England is too complex and needs to be streamlined. That conclusion may surprise no one but here are a few actions to take:
We do not need the 15 or so ALBs currently reporting to the DHSC. NHS England, a new body to monitor, improve and represent adult social care together with the Health Security Agency and CQC, i.e. four in total, would suffice and help the DHSC do a better job. That would remove over 150 of the current 213 ALB directors.
With the work all being done by the ALBs, the 3,502 DNSC civil servants could be reduced to about 30% of that number.
There would seem to be little to gain from further messing about with the primary sector. They have had enough of that recently.
The 223 trusts are another matter. Each of them has layers of boards and management. Obviously, these units need managers but they do not need all the modern bureaucracy associated with independent corporate bodies. The reality is that they are part of the NHS, not independent, and do not need all the paraphernalia the government now loads onto commercial companies and partnerships. A commercial company does need to be driven top down but health services should be provided by the clinical staff with managers helping them with what they need and can afford. In other words, the secondary needs to be driven bottom up with minimal management and bureaucracy.
Finally, the DHSC should develop the medically supported nursing home sector to relieve pressure and costs on hospitals which should focus on treatment and cure. This would materially improve the value for money of, and patient satisfaction with, the NHS.

Trimming+the+Fat+Version+1.pdf

Chelsea2026 · 17/03/2025 13:22

Perhaps the Labour Government will abolish ICBs next. Maybe Providers will be told to get rid of all analysts and business intelligence teams and get clinicans and nurses to do all the analysis. Maybe they will scrap all targets and datasets and just let NHS acute trusts do what they want. Ultimately my fear is that apart from DHSC all healthcare regulators will disappear including UKHSA, CQC, NICE, NHS Health Research Authority etc

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 17/03/2025 13:25

Ah the Adam Smith Institute, that bastion of neoliberalism, aimed at promoting the private sector.

In fairness, @Chelsea2026 , it isn’t polite to post whole reports or essays in one post, and to expect people to read and respond to them.

Chelsea2026 · 17/03/2025 13:27

Sorry everyone

rubbishatballet · 17/03/2025 13:32

BIossomtoes · 17/03/2025 12:57

They can differ as much as they like, not that they would. Every single member of the armed forces, regardless of their specialty be it logistics, engineering or even catering is capable and expected to fight if necessary. Obviously that includes officers.

But there are also loads of civilians that work on logistics, procurement, tech, intelligence, engineering etc?

BIossomtoes · 17/03/2025 13:33

Chelsea2026 · 17/03/2025 13:22

Perhaps the Labour Government will abolish ICBs next. Maybe Providers will be told to get rid of all analysts and business intelligence teams and get clinicans and nurses to do all the analysis. Maybe they will scrap all targets and datasets and just let NHS acute trusts do what they want. Ultimately my fear is that apart from DHSC all healthcare regulators will disappear including UKHSA, CQC, NICE, NHS Health Research Authority etc

I was working in the NHS under the last Labour government. The targets and monitoring were stringent. There was absolutely no free for all. There’s no reason whatsoever why all those functions can’t be carried out by DHSC.

BIossomtoes · 17/03/2025 13:36

rubbishatballet · 17/03/2025 13:32

But there are also loads of civilians that work on logistics, procurement, tech, intelligence, engineering etc?

There are no civilians working on key functions. They all work in support roles and, on the whole, are very poorly regarded by those in uniform.

rubbishatballet · 17/03/2025 13:51

BIossomtoes · 17/03/2025 13:36

There are no civilians working on key functions. They all work in support roles and, on the whole, are very poorly regarded by those in uniform.

So eg procurement of new helicopters or making sure that people get paid every month are not key functions then?

BIossomtoes · 17/03/2025 13:55

Procurement is an MoD function, is it not?

GasPanic · 17/03/2025 14:39

GottaWork · 13/03/2025 11:42

I work for an ICB (commissioner) and we have been called to an emergency meeting today. We went through a restructure last year and lost 20% of our workforce. We are on our knees with overwork and now there is talk of a further reduction by 50%.

I know the NHS is in a mess and needs overhauling but as someone who loves their job and works hard to make things as good as they can be, I am gutted.

Incidentally, I spent 20 of my 37 hour work week last week responding to MP enquiries - oh the irony.

This is part of the problem with these headline grabbing announcements.

It's all very good saying they are going to axe 9000 people. But who has the confidence that it is actually going to be the right 9000 ?

This is all about headlines and not actually about improving the system.

Select your target that you can sell to the public (in this case the workshy bloated management, not the angelic nurses and doctors) and come out with big numbers to look impressive.

Tomorrow the target will be the workshy benefits claimants, and probably quoting large numbers of people that they are going to get back into work. But how do they know those numbers. And if that number were indeed workshy why are they being given benefits in the first place.

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