NHS England to go is Keir being unreasonable?

[43percentburnt]

I don’t work for the NHS but have friends who do (and are increasingly looking at leaving - in some cases to move abroad).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cx29lrl826rt

Is the removal of NHS England a good thing? Or is this a Labour gimmick?

To include an Aibu for Keir -

Yes Keir - you are being unreasonable

Or

Good job Keir, please get rid of NHS England - you are NOT being unreasonable

It’s a very good thing. There’s a huge amount of duplication between NHS England and the DHSS. The real lunacy was its creation by Lansley’s 2012 health bill that created numerous layers of bureaucracy.

I absolutely agree. In our recent restructure, a huge number of very talented people were lost to voluntary redundancy. Consequently there are still people here who just get shifted from team to team as nobody really wants them. As a line manager I really struggle to get HR support for performance management.

We’re ruthless in my trust. It takes 6 months and it’s an admin nightmare but we get rid of poor performers. It’s the coasting, just good enough ones that stick though, but that’s the same anywhere.

@43percentburnt

I'm not sure whether it's a gimmick, or genuinely well intentioned.

All I know is that having seen it first hand, when you remove management, admin, and bureaucratic staff in the NHS, it doesn't simultaneously remove the demand for administration, management, and bureaucratic support. All that happens is that responsibility then falls upon the clinical staff who formerly had that support at hand, they end up spending more time doing things other than the clinical stuff, it's even more inefficient, leads to utter chaos, petty fiefdoms, and ultimately costs an extra arm and leg as opposed to when that sort of stuff is left to people specifically employed to deal with it.

That won’t happen with the demise of NHSE, it doesn’t employ any front line staff. It’s the epitome of bureaucracy.

Yep. NHSE's functions were previously carried out by DHSC.

Could do with more admin staff but at a lower level to help with tasks such as rotas leave sickness admin etc. - the secretaries of old. Not senior managers who seem to spend their days doing walkabouts.

@JasmineTea11

Why is a task force different to a quango?
I presumed a task force researches an area and gives advice and info to the gov so falls under Quango as per the BBC article. Is this incorrect?

What do quangos do?
They can deliver public services, give advice or regulate behaviour. Quangos can range from tiny committees that meet a few times a year to organisations with multi-million pound budgets and thousands of staff. There are several different types:
Those with executive powers to actually do something. Examples include the Environment Agency, Regional Development Agencies, national galleries and museums, regulators such as Ofcom
Advisory bodies which give independent, expert advice to ministers on a range of matters - such as the Committee on Standards on Public Life, Boundary Commission
Watchdogs that set standards and regulate behaviour, such as bodies which look at prisons, immigration removal centres etc.

Happy to hold my hand up and admit my NHS experience is not within the English NHS, so I'll defer to your superior knowledge, I just get a bit riled when I come across the frequent assertion that everyone and anyone in an admin or management role within the NHS is undoubtedly just an unnecessary waste of resources, in a "non-job", needs booted, and the money spent on beds/nurses. It's laughably naive.

I don’t know the detail of how this will work and what it actually means - but I work in the NHS and the conversations I have had in the last hour is that of overwhelming positivity at the move. Many are sick of the bureaucracy, the rules, the middle men (nhse) we have to appease to get anything done!

However Starmer will be judged on delivery so the detail is important as is his commitment this morning about this meaning more nurses etc…

I worked in the NHS for over 20 years and I agree with you. Cutting the costs of organisations that deliver no front line care and micromanage those that do can only be a good thing.

More nurses - but how?

I think it is appalling that we take nurses from abroad. We let another country train them and then poach them! It’s awful.

We need to focus on increasing places at university for Drs and Dentist courses in the U.K.

Maybe the savings could be used for training? With a commitment to work in the NHS on graduation for x number of years?

Where I am, there actually is no shortage of training places, it's a shortage of people willing to take them up, because the perception of the career that awaits has fallen so low that fewer and fewer people are interested.

It's not disinterest in the vocation, it's the horror stories of horrendous hours, horrendous salaries, staff being abused, attacked, etc etc

It's good news. Lansleys reforms were a disaster for the NHS. There are a lot of duplicated functions across NHSE and DHSC. I feel terribly sorry for the huge number of people who will be losing their jobs though. I have worked with many people from both NHSE and DHSC over the years and they've all been very on the ball

I can see no reason why a politicised NHS would be a bad idea.

It’s always been political.

I don't think anyone really knows what this means yet.

If it means centralising purchasing power, for example, and saving money that way , all good.

It appears at the moment that the NHS is very fragmented with no joined-up thinking between all the trusts across England.

It does need some kind of central control instead of layers of management and waste.

How he will do this is unclear.

I think that's already happening but you do understand it takes 5 years to train?

@XDownwiththissortofthingX

I thought some kids are struggling to get into uni doing medicine as not enough spaces.

This is from House of Commons library 2023 so I appreciate more spaces may have been made available in 2024.

‘Calls to raise the medical and dental student caps
Despite an increase in the number of medical schools and places across the UK since the early 2000s, the UK does not train enough doctors to have a sustainable supply without recruiting qualified doctors from abroad. Similarly, demand for dental services is not being met by the current NHS dental workforce.
This has led to calls from the House of Commons Health and Social Care Committee, as well as a number of healthcare sector bodies, for the UK to expand the number of doctors and dentists it trains.
The Labour party has said it would double the number of medical school places to 15,000 per year. This would include opening up to 15 new medical schools, expanding existing medical training centres, and delivering more clinical placements. It has said it would fund its proposal by abolishing the non-domiciled tax status, which allows some individuals to avoid paying UK income tax.’

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9735/

But isn’t the problem new UK nurses and doctors can’t get jobs in the NHS? The whole system
is nuts.

That just about sums him up, doesn't it? 😂

Surely taskforces are created with a time limiter engagement. To, presumably, work out what is going on and then enable improvement.

Even if KS knows areas have issues there's no way he would know everything to enable streamlining. I would expect a task force to tell him that?

The NHS will be on it's knees unless and until social care is properly addressed.

I'm afraid this is a headline grabber that fails to deal with the real issues that the NHS face.

I also don't trust Mr Starmer to do good for the people, he appears to have little regard to core labour values to be honest.

I didn't vote Labour the first time ever this election, I declined to vote.

In my opinion he is no better than the Tories and my fears which led me to fail to vote for him have played out.

Give me a list of ALL the “arms length” bodies and I’ll chose the wasteful ones (the ones “friends of Labour” getting stupid salaries)

Absolutely - my Mum was in a hospital bed from November to the end of January waiting for a suitable care package - all of that time aside from 1 week when she had infection, she was medically fit for discharge.