NHS England to go is Keir being unreasonable?

[43percentburnt]

I don’t work for the NHS but have friends who do (and are increasingly looking at leaving - in some cases to move abroad).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cx29lrl826rt

Is the removal of NHS England a good thing? Or is this a Labour gimmick?

To include an Aibu for Keir -

Yes Keir - you are being unreasonable

Or

Good job Keir, please get rid of NHS England - you are NOT being unreasonable

Another situation where the government force huge cuts on the NHS for overspending when they have under funded it for years. Total shit show and will be the same as back in 2012-13 where they spent a lot of money paying redundancies and the same people were back in full time employment elsewhere in the NHS but with a huge nest egg courtesy of the British taxpayers. Fucking stupid people making stupid decisions. Focus should be on providing great care, growing our clinical workforce and making sure they are paid a decent wage.

Ccgs are long gone. Now icb (integrated care boards]

That reads like there are a lot of people working on analysing and justifying work that is being done and on proving that work is being done. And then the people above them are analysing their reports and asking them to justify them. And then ministers above them are saying it’s all costing too much and not working the way they want it to, and they therefore think it would be helpful to set targets which require more people to be employed to analyse the work being done, which then requires more people to be employed to analyse the work of the people doing the analysis.

I didn't mean it to sound like that 😂

TLDR: It's much more than analysis - it's implementing and managing things so clinicians don't have to, then monitoring it. I have been a clinician and I managed my caseload and treated children. I didn't have room in my day (apart from 0.5 one day a week for competencies/general admin like updating EPR/SystmOne/huddles) to manage all the above. Waiting lists, pathways & efficiency weren't my problem. Now they are (for the next 6 months they are anyway 😬)

I'd be really interested to know how other countries do this

it sounds like several layers of data management

I work for NHSE, my department's biggest customer day to day (wanting information and analysis and reports so they can make policy) is DHSC. We were downsized by 40% last year and are absolutely drowning in work that ministers and DHSC require of us. If our team ceases to exist then I cannot imagine how informed policy in our subject area can be made. If we are moved over and cut by another 50%, we simply can't do it. Individuals are on their absolute knees trying to keep up.

Our second biggest customer is NHS trusts, who ask us to help them manage their patient information and local decision-making so that there is reduced variation of patient care and outcomes nationally. We do not monitor them in any way, we help and support them when they ask. And, lots of them do ask. We spend many hours working with frontline staff at all levels to support them. I wonder who will do this going forward...if we're not careful then variation in treatment and care will instantly rear its head (the dreaded, and totally unfair, postcode lottery of care).

I entered the NHS in a clinical role in 1993. I worked my way up through clinical roles and studied additional qualifications in my own time in order to progress. I have this job because I have a wealth of clinical and patient experience, as well as the skills and qualifications to implement new processes and get improved treatments out to patients as quickly as possible. I'm proud of what I and my team do. We are not lazy, or pen pushers, or bloat.

This will be the third rounds of reductions and reorganisations we have been through in 4 years, the last one ended at Christmas. In January we were told we needed to reduce by another 15%...on Tuesday this week were suddenly told actually it was 50%, not 15%. On Thursday many of us saw on the news that actually, we were being 'abolished'. As individuals we deserve to be treated better than this.

Ah, I see the plan, then. If they get rid of you, politicians will be free to make unevidenced changes and then tell everyone they have worked. Trump has proved, after all, that people will more readily accept lies than evidence based research.

To all those bleating about redundancy nest eggs and walking straight back into another NHS role, those days are long gone. Redundancy schemes now have a clawback so if you return to an NHS role within a set time frame (12 months or whatever is specified in the T&C of the scheme) you pay back the redundancy at a proportional rate depending on how long you were out of the NHS.

The biggest employer in the world is Walmart.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listoflargestemployers#Largestemployers

Ok NHS is only in the top 10. (7th)

But we're a tiny tiny country.

We just had a restructuring in my ICB and that is not what happened to my colleagues who were made redundant. I know for a fact one of them has found work in a PCN and no way would he have done that if it had meant surrendering part of his payout

Tiny island, really big country.

Australia, where I live, is the reverse: huge island, small country.

Think population, this is key.

Remember PCNs are technically a private business, so it won't have an effect on their redundancy.

I also work for an ICB and I totally agree. Far too many senior managers since we merged with another layer added.

I work for NHSE and don't want to lose my job either but do agree there is too much duplication, inefficiency and complicated structures. I've listened to Wes Streeting on the politics shows this morning and I do agree with much of what he said. The language him and Starmer used earlier in the week about staff in NHS organisations was awful though.

I agree with the reasons Keir is abolishing NHS England as part of the problems of the NHS are too many people in management and not enough staff on the ground. It is now past its sell by date

I sit on a couple of Government Taskforces (not for health). Taskforces are time limited, small expert teams that look into a specific solution to a specific problem. They aren't quangos as such because quangos are generally just new departments or organisations that report to Government and remain. Taskforces are usually closed down within a year, unless they have a large remit to 'solve'. So, two have been closed down within a year, one may be never ending given the problems that it has to fix. That's my interpretation, but who knows! The list is a wild mix of things though, without looking into them individually it's hard to tell.

The NHS is bloated with unnecessary posts and NHS England is not required. It’s harsh for the staff but systemically is a good move. More focus on patient care and more regional control will be beneficial.

You just have to look at patient waiting lists, recruitment data and spending to see that NHS England has failed in why it was created to do. Too many unnecessary bureaucratic posts on high salaries are undermining it's efficiency. An acquaintance of mine started working for them in the last year and has said he does about 2 hours work a day for a 70kish salary. Agree the only way to move forward is to abolish it.

It should never have got this out of hand to begin with. Sad that people are losing their jobs, but with lots of too big companies the staff doing the actual frontline work are in short supply whilst managers of all levels have endless meetings that are just hot air. It happens in lots of companies. The NHS have had far too much money pumped in over the years and have wasted lots of it. It needs to happen or the NHS will collapse, as we know it’s already on its knees.

Yep, and feeling almost suicidal after 30 years of serving the public

You do realise many of us have spent pur lives in health and social care, starting front line, but also qualified accountants, economists, social scientists, lawyers, procurement and contract specialists.....clinical front line should not fulfill these roles. How do you think budget allocations, work plans, refereeing services and providers who do not work holistically for the patient, Transformation, training and all these critical pieces of work operate.

So many people that think like this are short sighted. It is like saying let's run a military campaign with just privates making the decisions.

I don’t know whether it will be good for the NHS or not, but I think that these huge cuts across the public sector are going to be disastrous for the employment market in general. Graduates, and other people currently looking for work (e.g. those who are being cut from higher education and looking for alternative employment) are suddenly going to find themselves competing with tens of thousands more people for jobs. It will drive wages down and lead to mass unemployment.

In fact, I think that thousands of public sector redundancies will ultimately tip the country into a massive recession.

Not all of it. Critical IT systems are run by NHS England. Are you suggesting that front line staff can start running them?