AIBU to feel outraged that Kyle Clifford is able to refuse to attend court today?

[HappySonHappyMum]

I am absolutely outraged that Kyle Clifford can choose not to attend court to hear his sentence and be forced to listen to the impact statements being read out by John and Amy Hunt. I'm literally sitting here crying with rage and sadness right now listening to their words. He should be dragged there and forced to listen, he lost all rights when he committed rape and then murdered three women in cold blood. Why does he even have a choice?

Yes, exactly.

@MugsyBalonz it is incredibly shortsighted to tell posters their visceral responses are not normal also. Think where that came from for them and why.

Are you male by any chance @ClearFruit

As someone who grew up on an abusive household, has been sexually assaulted, and was the victim of attempted murder I think I can work out where it came from and why and I still stand by what I said.

I was thinking the same thing. If he doesn't want to go, they should play the victim impact statements and the judges findings on loud speaker in his cell so he doesn't have any choice to hear them.

Or forced to attend, but placed in a soundproof box that he can be seen in but not heard as the statements are read out.

The man is a total and utter despicable coward that deserves to rot in hell for the rest of his days.

There was a post the other day about whether cases like this reignite thoughts about the death penalty. I'm so disgusted with him that I definitely don't think the death penalty is good enough for him. He deserves to live a miserable and hopefully painful life.

The judge made it clear that he didn’t want to make Clifford view the proceedings from prison is that he didn’t want to afford him the possibility of disrupting the proceedings, as the murderer of the Salford girls did during his trial and sentencing. Quite right too, the family have been through enough without that snivelling sad excuse for a man sat sneering at them. I very much hope some of his fellow prisoners will do him the favour of reading the families victim statements to him very loudly.

He's sociopath/psychopath so wouldn't feel any shame, remorse or empathy if he was present to hear the impact statements. He's now paralysed from the chest down and will spend the rest of his life in prison. I'm glad his suicide attempt was unsuccessful as he will suffer much more being alive in the state that he is in.

How horrendous. What an absolutely hideous and traumatic experience to endure. I understand your post now.

You don’t want him there shouting and spitting and god knows what else while they’re talking. Forcing him to be there wouldn’t be in anyone’s best interests, he’s lost his liberty, that’s his punishment.

My trauma is not someone's emotion-dumping fodder and I don't understand people who cry at the news when they're not the ones directly impacted by it.

I hope the prison play it loudly on repeat in his cell tonight.

I know it is academic since the sentences are concurrent and this pathetic scum will never wheel his wheelchair in fresh air as a free man, but I am really really pleased that the judge gave a proper sentence for Louise Hunt’s rape. 20 years, it is what the starting point for every rape sentence should be, with no early release.

Agree. Normally I am all about human rights. But in the case of violent killers - like Clifford and Rudakubana - they should be gagged and restrained and placed in court to hear the victim statements.

What was also striking in John's statement was he said that Carol had the measure of Clifford and knew he was wrong for her daughter but continued to be kind to him and allowed Louise to come to the decision about the relationship herself. We can imagine how hard that must have been from many of the posts we see here about daughters stuck in toxic, abusive relationships.
She sounds like she was a great lady and a great mum.

Lots of people (understandably) want this piece of scum to feel every ounce of pain possible.

He’s in a particularly unfortunate position, I think, in that his weak-minded suicide attempt failed. He’s left himself functioning mentally but physically disabled.

So, if he’s paralysed from the chest down, he’ll have a permanent catheter now to empty his bladder. He’ll have a “bowel routine” whereby suppositories are inserted into his rectum every day or every other day, to make him shit.

He’ll be at constant risk of pressure wounds and infection. His lower limb muscles will waste to nothing. He’ll be at risk of autonomic dysreflexia (though I dont know the specific details of his injury, of course).

He’ll be vulnerable because of his wheelchair dependency. That means assistance to shower, to get in and out of bed, to the toilet etc.

He’s been left in a vulnerable position and will never, ever get out of it. Will never play pool in jail or kick a football. Will never do a full workout at the gym.

He’d even struggle to attempt suicide, if he fancies trying again, I think.

So while we can’t invoke death penalties or similar, look at his situation. He’s a lifelong prisoner in more ways than one.

Human rights have to apply to everyone, regardless of what they've done - it's a slippery slope to start excluding people, no matter how tempting it may be in cases like this.

And if you wouldn't force an able bodied person you shouldn't force someone in a wheelchair.

I see no point in forcing people like him to hear the victim statements. He won't suddenly see the light and feel remorse, he might even be pleased to hear of the suffering he's caused.

Exactly this. Your assuming him being there would have any emotional impact on him. I wouldn't. If anything if he was forced to attend his protest at being forced to be there would like for him to be as disruptive as possible.
Why would you risk injuring prison officers by having him physically removed from his cell, restrained and put into the court room? Do you have any idea of the logistics and cost of that?
His sentence is his punishment. Being there to listen to it being read out serves no purpose.

I’ve spent the best part of the past decade covering courts as a journalist.

I’ve seen more prisoners than I care to count sitting in the dock who didn’t want to be there. I’ve seen them repeatedly shouting that the judge is a cunt, smashing their heads on the glass till there’s blood smeared all over it, elbowing court staff in the face, screaming at me that I’m a bitch, trying to spit at grieving families, repeatedly shouting out victim’s names and calling them awful things...

There’s absolutely no way any defendant should be forced into the court room for a sentencing hearing. It’s a totally unworkable suggestion. Restraining them simply would not work. There’s no money for sound proof glass, as someone suggested above. Plus the same dock would need to be used for criminal trails where those on trial need to hear what’s going on.

Forcing defendants into the room would make a horrendous experience even worse for those victims left behind.

“A lifelong prisoner in more ways than one. “

And every one deserved.

Should be forced to have their mouths gaffed taped shut. The dregs of society have more rights than everyone else 🤬

Absolutely. Let him rot in this life and the next.

Good. I wish him a long and painful life.

I couldn't be happier than that piece of shit is now in prison and paralysed. He deserves every level of misery and pain he gets for as long as possible.

I see no point in forcing people like him to hear the victim statements. He won't suddenly see the light and feel remorse, he might even be pleased to hear of the suffering he's caused.

Agreed. These offenders don't refuse to attend out of shame, or cowardice. They don't care- they do it as a final Fuck You to the victims and the courts.

That's why I think they should change the law so they CANNOT attend in person. Take away that last little bit of autonomy.

Great post. It's always telling when people who have some idea what they're talking about are against an idea on practical grounds.