AIBU to feel outraged that Kyle Clifford is able to refuse to attend court today?

[HappySonHappyMum]

I am absolutely outraged that Kyle Clifford can choose not to attend court to hear his sentence and be forced to listen to the impact statements being read out by John and Amy Hunt. I'm literally sitting here crying with rage and sadness right now listening to their words. He should be dragged there and forced to listen, he lost all rights when he committed rape and then murdered three women in cold blood. Why does he even have a choice?

He should have been strapped into his wheel chair, gagged and wheeled into court.

What would this achieve?

It would drive it home to this scum that he has no autonomy anymore. He no longer gets to choose anything. No one gives a shit about what he wants, ever. He has zero say in where he goes or what he does, ever.

It will reinforce the fact he will now always, always be vulnerable and helpless. Totally dependent on prison staff......and at the mercy of inmates who decide they're going to make this scum suffer.

Genius!

The problem is for someone like this, the victim statements will have no impact on them whatsoever, if anything they could get off on hearing the pain they have inflicted.

Gagging him isn’t realistically going to achieve anything but could compromise everything.

Gagging and strapping a wheelchair user that is paralysed from the chest down isn’t a good look for the court - shit like that could possibly get his conviction overturned. He could note it in an appeal to state he was mistreated etc. It gives him the ability to play the victim.

The judge made the right choice by not allowing him to further disrupt proceedings with his presence.

Beyond that, the offender is paralysed from the chest down. Let that sink in. I don’t think anyone needs to drive that home to him any further; it’s obvious there no sort of life for him left. I’m sure the trash will take itself out in due course, without interference from others.

This is an interesting perspective but I believe his family were actually supportive of him.

Imo there’s enough information in the press to draw a conclusion. His parents are from Malta, which has a strong patriarchal culture. His father - in Louise’s words - is violent, and the racism, violence and killer brother were never condemned in that household. Instead it was seen as funny, justifiable behaviour. Just seems like the Clifford men have short fuses and can do no wrong. I don’t think it’s that they didn’t rally around him, they likely did and stroked his ego to a misogynistic level.

His family were aware of him taking his crossbow out illegally. I understand his brother not reporting him; as convicted murderers tend to have no morals. However his sister did not report him either which speaks volumes about her attitude to criminality.

I think his scorn towards the Hunt family is evident but I think it comes from a place of feeling slighted by them as opposed to just envy. He felt they needed to be punished because they saw through his facade.

It's not unreasonable to be angry and upset. But it's hard to see what forcing this terrible man into court would achieve. Turning the proceedings into a grotesque pantomime with himself at the centre of it would be small beer after what he did to the Hunt family. You can imagine him screaming, spitting, insulting everyone concerned, especially his victims and possibly worst of all, gloating over the details of what he did, defacing the victim impact statements with the sort of malevolence most of us are lucky to never encounter in our lives. As PP have suggested, it would be more fitting for him to be legally barred from being in court on the day when the judge decides his fate.

He's going to spend the rest of his life locked up, with minimal choices even compared with other prisoners (eg, those who don't decide to put crossbow bolts through themselves) As he's so young, we can wish him a very long life, with very little in it other than changes in location. The most dangerous, manipulative inmates aren't allowed to get too comfortable in any one institution and are moved around as much as the resources of the prisons estate allow. Hopefully, he's got decades of nothing to look forward to but prison, while those on the outside are born, live and die as more or less free human beings. And serve him right.

Ok so it doesn't have any impact on him blah blah blah. But what about the family's and their right to put the statement across that they wrote and wanted to deliver in person. Do they not matter? How does he get to demand that he doesn't want to face the court and those family members? It's disgraceful and one last insult to the family that they have crushed. I hope the law does change and these vile creatures never get a choice ever again.

I know what you mean and in an ideal world he'd sit quietly and the family could look at the sorry specimen and have him listen to their incredibly powerful words and maybe even nudge him to feel some shame and remorse.

But what if that doesn't happen, what if he shouts out like the Southport killer did, what if he smirks, laughs or shouts out details of how he killed these women and enjoyed it.

None of that helps the family. It would only harm them and God knows they've suffered enough.

Video link from the prison. Make him listen to the family but mute his end of the call so no one can hear if he is abusive. And then they get to end the call when the family are ready, not him.

The brother is going to get out (eventually). His crime was awful but not on the same scale.

If he's going to be wandering the streets in 15 years or so, one hopes that SOME form of rehabilitation will have taken place by then. So probably best he doesn't spend the duration bunking up with his more psychotic, mass-murdering sibling whispering sweet nothings in his ear.

His sister asked him he'd taken the crossbow out he lied to her of course....

Wonder how life is for the sister. We know that the Clifford men don't value women.

Was it worth it then?

I hope Clifford lives a long life in prison. As other people have pointed out, he won't have a lovely cushy time behind bars, he'll have an utterly shit time. Prison is hard enough as it is, but with physical disabilities and no prospect of release, he'll really suffer every day. Good.

Also, I'd like to invite all the posters who want to manhandle violent dangerous prisoners into court or video links, to join the prison service and get stuck in. There are always vacancies, so please do come and show us all how soft we are.

He admitted to taking it out in public and shooting it at someone’s house. What he admitted to was enough for her to report him. She still chose not to. Had she meaningfully intervened the deaths likely would have been avoided.

There is no disputing that's what she should have done but I bet if she had then she'd have been ostracized by the family for grassing on one of their own.

Definitely, they seem like that sort of toxic family. Her actions are unforgivable regardless
of her misguided loyalty. She protected him at all costs.

I found it interesting that the press showed footage of him taking his small niece out to the garden centre before the murders. I dread to think how that little girl is being raised, with such a dysfunctional family. I hope she is getting external support cause she’s otherwise going to be taught that her killer uncle’s actions are acceptable and that women are lesser than men.

@MJconfessions I dread to think how that little girl is being raised, with such a dysfunctional family.

Oh god I never thought of that. If there's any young boys in that family then he's probably being held up to them as a shining role model of how not to let the women "get one over on you". And so the cycle of toxicity will go on.

That was pretty much offered by the prison I think but the judge said nothing would be gained as it was clear he would just be disruptive in that room and not listen.

“[T]heir wishes ought to outweigh the opinion of a detached judge...”

Ludicrous and wrong. The family are not in charge of and responsible for the safety, dignity and efficacy of proceedings in the court room; the judge is. Furthermore, the proceedings were before a High Court judge, and one with a long and distinguished career at the criminal bar who knew exactly what factors had to be weighed up and who came to an utterly unimpeachable decision.

If they're likely facing a whole life sentence, which he knew he was as his crimes fitted the criteria, then additional time on their sentence wouldn't be a threat. Many of the high profile cases where the defendant refused to attend (eg Wayne Couzens) are whole life order cases so what do you threaten?

He's received a whole life term and he knew that's what he was facing so this would make zero difference.

@fashionqueen0123 what extra punishment can you give if he already has a whole life order?!

Increased beyond his whole life?

Was it worth it, he knew he'd be caught and face life.
Much easier to have walked away and got therapy.