My sister's been sacked - AGAIN!

[Scottysister]

Not so much AIBU but more is ISBU - Is She Being Unreasonable?

My younger sister has just been fired from her third job in seven years. Middle management in the private sector.

She’s coming to stay with DH & me in a couple of days & I’m dreading it. How she’s been picked on/bullied/forced out will be the only topic of conversation. I want to support her but how can I (kindly/nicely) point out to her that her behaviour & personality are a massive factor in what keeps happening? She just doesn’t see it.

She’s early 50’s - not had a partner for 20years or so. No children or friends either. Her work is EVERYTHING to her. She is so passionate about it & expects everyone on her team to be the same. But they aren’t. They have a life outside of work but sadly she doesn’t. Each new job is the best she’s ever had. Until it isn’t. Each new team is absolutely brilliant. Until they aren’t. I do think she gets results and is good at the technical side of her job. Just really bad at the people/relationship side. The hours she works (through choice) are ridiculous.

She’s never been a particularly easy person to be around. Very intense & tightly wound. When we see her we’re all constantly walking on eggshells for fear of saying something that will upset or annoy her. Our elderly mother in particular. Her moods can be awful & she doesn’t take any criticism well. I think over the years the whole family has avoided saying no to her for fear of the explosion of anger & moods. I don’t think we’ve done her any favours with that approach.

I live at the other end of the country so we don’t see each other that often. She comes up maybe two or three times a year. We’re never invited to stay with her. I do message but she’s not great at replying - maybe a thumbs up or a very brief reply. Just says she’s super busy at work. She rarely messages me.

The previous sacking happened because she lost her temper with a junior member of her team & shouted/swore at them about something pretty minor. This was in front of a client. She couldn’t see that she had played any role in events. Kept saying that everyone had it in for her & it had been orchestrated. That she’d been victimised, bullied etc. She came to stay after that & it was awful. Gentle attempts to point out how wrong her behaviour was, didn’t go down well at all. She said I was blaming her & she was the victim in all this. I also suggested she thought about some counselling but she said that was ridiculous & it was the others who needed it not her.

I tried to be positive with suggestions to stop it happening again. Maybe work fewer hours, take time off, get a hobby, keep it professional with the team, try & nip any issues in the bud etc etc. Clearly that all fell on deaf ears.

I don’t know the full detail of what’s happened this time yet but (again) her new team has turned against her. Reported her to HR for various things and she’s out. She sounded so angry on the phone yesterday.

I’ve read about DARVO & a lot of that seems to fit. She thinks she’s the victim because she’s been fired, but her behaviour led to it - again!

How can she not see she’s the common denominator? What’s the best way to have a conversation about this? DH & I can’t just bite our tongues for the duration of the visit. How do you talk to someone who doesn’t listen? Has anyone got any tips or advice? Am dreading it.

So sorry this was really long.

If you hardly see and hardly speak as you acknowledged with the brief texts how do you know it’s all her. You don’t sound close at all. You almost sound like you hate her, if that’s the case do her a favour and cut her off. Was her upbringing different to yours?

I’m similar and I totally agree.

When people don’t fit in from my experience there is either a toxic group or a toxic person.

In this context by toxic person I mean a person who does not have the ability, social skills, to work in a team and toxic groups are those who engage in toxic behaviours, usually these groups founded and directed by those with significant narcissistic traits or old school bullies.

It is unlikely that the OP’s sister has landed in and been fired from 3 toxic groups, it is more likely she is the toxic one.

Depends on the industry, eg estate agents/property managers often are very toxic workplaces. If you are a woman in a male dominated industry- ie police or engineering then these are often toxic to all/any women. Also, if you are a minority, more likely the workplace is toxic due to racism or xenophobia than you being toxic.

Add in ageism as the sister has had these 3 sackings in 7 years while over age 40..

it is not unlikely that the workplaces have been toxic.

Agreed, the sister is the problem.

But to be fair, anyone who doesn’t invest into relationships, family, friendships, hobbies & interests etc and simply just does ‘work’ is bound to end up as an unbalanced oddball.

I see it up close regularly with high profile sportspeople - they are brilliant at the one thing they do.. but often to the detriment of being a balanced human being.

But the sister has put all her personality eggs in the work basket, and at early 50s is only at middle management.. so arguable that’s not great! So she’s probably angry and disappointed at her own lack of success.

I like this idea of getting out of the house. Sounds like a good way to steer the conversation away from work.

Is she undiagnosed neurodiverse?

I am not one of them people who think everything is a sign of SEN, however all of this is my brother and at the age of 36 he was diagnosed Asperger’s.

when we went to school back in the 90’s he was clever and well behaved so didn’t fit the “special needs model” however now with more understanding this has come about.

it’s meant not only is he able to learning and understand about himself but we have been able too as well, nothing as necessarily changed but the flying off the handle and the sulking and the obsessive behaviour had reduced!

I think that you should drop trying to 'help' by getting her to see things differently unless she specifically asks you for help. But otherwise just sympathize with her and give lots of uh huh responses. Whatever the reasons, she is in a horrible situation, so a little empathy would not go amiss.

What a load of silly nonsense.

It’s far more likely that sister is ND and struggling to fit into NT norms.

Just reading this thread highlights how so many NT people expect ND people to fit into their world and make zero concessions to change their thought patterns to fit into the ND person’s world.

But to be fair, anyone who doesn’t invest into relationships, family, friendships, hobbies & interests etc and simply just does ‘work’ is bound to end up as an unbalanced oddball.

And posters like this and others on this thread ⬆️ think they’re the righteous ones.

I live in hope that we ND people will eventually rule the world and then things will change. Just wait!! 😂 😂

I think it was her fault - she shouted at someone!

What in the alphabetti spaghetti are you talking about?!?

early 50s and been sacked 3 times int he last 7 and middle management

So before 2018 - what jobs was she doing that she didn't get sacked from?

What has changed in her that she now only works and doesn't have any down time or hobbies?

Would it be better to steer her back to what she was doing before 2018? when she wan't being sacked..

Could you suggest that the visit is rescheduled so that she can
A) lick her wounds
B) look for another job

You are being supportive but you strongly recommend that pleasure (visit) comes second to pragmatism (new job).

That is not my experience. If you are ND and you have the toxic traits described in the OP, presenteeism, projecting out perfectionism, superiority, critical of other staff, etc then others, especially those working under you, are going to have a problem with you because of them.

I work as an Engineer and there are plenty of us who are ND getting along just fine for decades so it is by no means universal that ND means difficult to get along with. We are the envy of the other departments because we get along so well whereas in the other departments there is a lot of acrimony because arguably the NTs have more people with the toxic traits.

I can see myself in your sister. I am autistic.

I find working with people difficult and am self employed which works for me. I find it difficult to see things from others point of view and sometimes the way other people do things makes no sense therefore is 'wrong'. I am excellent at my job and my hyper focus is a real asset to my line of work as well as my ability to see things differently (and find solutions) that others can't. I am sought after in my industry possibly because of my neuro diversity. Autism can be a strength as long as it is directed in the right way.

It seems likely your sister is neuro diverse but has never recognised it in herself or had it recognised. Is her job something she could do on a self employed/ consultancy basis. It sounds as enough she is good at what she does and just can't manage other people.

I have kids with a very understanding (and tolerant) husband and have never been fired but I came to a realisation a long time ago about myself and one of my sons is like me.

Your post screams at me that your DSis is autistic.

Classic hallmark signs:

1. no friends
2. no partner
3. obsessed with work
4. obsessed with other people being obsessed with work to the same level as she is
5. unable to get on with people, rubs people up the wrong way, quite possibly without meaning to
6. a sense of injustice which is very triggering for autistic people

Go and get her a diagnosis and some help. Poor woman. It's shit being ND. It really is shit for so much of life. You don't fit in anywhere.

She needs help to breakdown why she's so different and how she can somehow find a job that's better for her personality, more solitary rather than working in a team. It will always be a struggle working in a team.

What’s the best way to have a conversation about this? DH & I can’t just bite our tongues for the duration of the visit.

Can’t, or won’t? I understand you’re concerned for your sister (and also your mother), but why do you feel you have to be the one to make her see sense - or even think you can?

With the best will in the world, if your sister hasn’t learned after being sacked three times, why are you going to be able to make her suddenly see the light?

I really appreciate all the replies - thank you! Some of them have really made me think.

To answer some of the points, you’re right she’s not my problem or responsibility but I don’t like seeing her so unhappy. As a poster said I also feel sorry for her - her work was her life & now it’s gone. I suppose I do feel a bit guilty as well. I seem to have sailed through life (so far) and she’s struggled with one battle after another. It doesn’t seem fair & if I can help I think I should. I know I won’t fix her but I do need to listen and make sympathetic noises. That said I will be setting boundaries & won’t let her go on & on for hours. Loved the suggestions to do positive things as well, getting out & about and try to keep upbeat and moving.

I’ve actually copied & pasted a lot of the phrases you suggested & kept them in notes on my phone. Can see me using them a lot so thank you.

A few people have asked about family & upbringing - whether there’s any ND especially on our dad’s side? I don’t think there is. He was lovely - clever, patient & funny. Could be a bit pedantic but a fundamentally sound man. We had a great stable childhood (well I think we did!) with no trauma or difficulties.

It’s funny but I was sorting through some old family photos over Christmas and there weren’t any of my sister smiling. We were all beaming away but she just looked surly & miserable. Even as a toddler she wasn’t happy.

I’ve quickly looked up Borderline Personality Disorder & this fits her to a tee. Will read up on this in more detail but I’m quite shocked by how accurately it describes her.

I’ll also look up Mel Robbins.

For those posters who work with or have family members/friends who are similar, sorry you’re going through it too.

I agree - being self employed would be a much better fit for her - or senior management! I’m going to raise this and try & get her to see it as an opportunity to change direction & move to something better, more suited to her strengths. I also think an employment coach would be a big help.

For the poster who asked about references, am not sure about the first place she got sacked from but the second company gave her just a very factual reference which she agreed. “OP’s sister worked here from X to Y. Her duties included A, B & C. “

In answer to why the sackings have only happened fairly recently, I think this is because she used to change jobs fairly frequently. Maybe she saw the writing on the wall & jumped before she was pushed? I don’t know. I also think workplaces are rightly tighter when it comes to unacceptable behaviour & bullying.

Finally a couple of posters made me look at this from a different angle - she may be being bullied because she’s different & doesn’t fit in. I think there could be a lot in that. Except I know some of her behaviour is downright unpleasant, especially to our mother who is nothing but lovely to her.

Thank you all again - I really appreciate the comments & feel a lot less dread about her visit. I’ll update afterwards - let’s hope it goes well. Xx

Same!

I’d ask your sister what she wants- does she want help or a solution or does she just want to whinge

If she just wants to whinge then set a time in your head that you’re prepared to listen (20 mins?) then after that empathise with her, repeat back what she has said to show you have listened. Then change the topic and do not allow her to start whinging again.

when she starts back up “Ah well we’ve been over that and I know you’re upset but let’s talk about something else.”

or stronger “I’m not talking about that again- you have told me what happened, I’ve empathised and since you don’t want help there’s nothing more I have to say. If you want help I can listen to some solutions with you.”

Remember it really is rude for someone to whinge on and on about the same things. It takes your time and drains your energy.

If she does want help then explore the options with her. To be honest she does sound ND. But people rarely change. This will probably keep happening until she retires. I guess she doesn’t have that much more to go.

Honestly, people massively overestimate both the importance of references and the level of detail that previous employers put into them. In my current (managerial level) job, I wasn’t even asked for them. In my previous job, someone from HR approached me a couple of weeks in and said they hadn’t had a response from my referee, and could I suggest someone else - I sent them to a generic HR email and never heard another word about it.

As for previous employers, most of them aren’t plotting ways to make life difficult for former employees (unless you’re talking about my first boss, who took every resignation as a personal insult). Giving someone a bad reference takes time and effort; it often results in follow-up from the hiring company wanting more details and, if the reference leads to an offer being withdrawn, potential legal action from the former employee. It’s all hassle the company doesn’t need - they had all the hassle when they went through the dismissal process. Why would they care once you’re someone else’s problem, when they can simply send a bland “I can confirm Annabel Bogbrush worked in the role of Accounts Manager from January 2020 to March 2023” response - if they even bother?

Had a manager like this and she was awful! She made the team's morale go to an all time low.

When she was finally let go it was a sigh of relief. She wasn't too bad with me as I made it known I didn't like her but she bullied some people. It was always the fault of someone else.

Sorry your sister is like this OP.

I was going to say similar - the best thing op could do is do some research into personality disorders which might match her sister. Not for her sister, but for OP’s sake. It’s far easier to deal with someone when you know what you’re dealing with.

Just to give you food for thought - the history of autism misdiagnosis in women is that a LOT of autistic women have been given borderline personality disorder diagnoses instead of having their autism diagnosed. This article tries to set out the difference.

embrace-autism.com/its-not-bpd-its-autism/

First answer, as ever.