My sister's been sacked - AGAIN!

[Scottysister]

Not so much AIBU but more is ISBU - Is She Being Unreasonable?

My younger sister has just been fired from her third job in seven years. Middle management in the private sector.

She’s coming to stay with DH & me in a couple of days & I’m dreading it. How she’s been picked on/bullied/forced out will be the only topic of conversation. I want to support her but how can I (kindly/nicely) point out to her that her behaviour & personality are a massive factor in what keeps happening? She just doesn’t see it.

She’s early 50’s - not had a partner for 20years or so. No children or friends either. Her work is EVERYTHING to her. She is so passionate about it & expects everyone on her team to be the same. But they aren’t. They have a life outside of work but sadly she doesn’t. Each new job is the best she’s ever had. Until it isn’t. Each new team is absolutely brilliant. Until they aren’t. I do think she gets results and is good at the technical side of her job. Just really bad at the people/relationship side. The hours she works (through choice) are ridiculous.

She’s never been a particularly easy person to be around. Very intense & tightly wound. When we see her we’re all constantly walking on eggshells for fear of saying something that will upset or annoy her. Our elderly mother in particular. Her moods can be awful & she doesn’t take any criticism well. I think over the years the whole family has avoided saying no to her for fear of the explosion of anger & moods. I don’t think we’ve done her any favours with that approach.

I live at the other end of the country so we don’t see each other that often. She comes up maybe two or three times a year. We’re never invited to stay with her. I do message but she’s not great at replying - maybe a thumbs up or a very brief reply. Just says she’s super busy at work. She rarely messages me.

The previous sacking happened because she lost her temper with a junior member of her team & shouted/swore at them about something pretty minor. This was in front of a client. She couldn’t see that she had played any role in events. Kept saying that everyone had it in for her & it had been orchestrated. That she’d been victimised, bullied etc. She came to stay after that & it was awful. Gentle attempts to point out how wrong her behaviour was, didn’t go down well at all. She said I was blaming her & she was the victim in all this. I also suggested she thought about some counselling but she said that was ridiculous & it was the others who needed it not her.

I tried to be positive with suggestions to stop it happening again. Maybe work fewer hours, take time off, get a hobby, keep it professional with the team, try & nip any issues in the bud etc etc. Clearly that all fell on deaf ears.

I don’t know the full detail of what’s happened this time yet but (again) her new team has turned against her. Reported her to HR for various things and she’s out. She sounded so angry on the phone yesterday.

I’ve read about DARVO & a lot of that seems to fit. She thinks she’s the victim because she’s been fired, but her behaviour led to it - again!

How can she not see she’s the common denominator? What’s the best way to have a conversation about this? DH & I can’t just bite our tongues for the duration of the visit. How do you talk to someone who doesn’t listen? Has anyone got any tips or advice? Am dreading it.

So sorry this was really long.

Just get her involved in something that means she can’t talk about work (I say ‘just’ but I know it’s not easy!) Hope you can find some way to have a good time with her. Best of luck!

Well you know from experience that whether it's conflict in her personal life or her professional life, she lacks any self awareness or accountability and obviously has a persecution complex and a narcissistic streak. She isn't going to change, or reflect on her own behaviour because she's already convinced herself that she is never the problem. We all know someone like this.

You need to accept that you are banging your head against a wall trying to help her. She doesn't want help, she wants someone to listen to her whinge about how unfair it all is. So perhaps that's all you should set out to do in future. Don't try to offer constructive criticism which will be thrown back in your face. Just smile and nod, make all the appropriate supportive noises, act like you are on her side and don't make yourself unpopular by pointing out the obvious.

She's either deluded, has some kind of mental illness or both. You won't change her at her age, just tell her you won't be listening to her bullshit if she visits and actually follow through.

This thread is so outing, I would be worried if I were you that she'd read it and be hurt. You've offered up her life without her permission, I think you've posted too much detail.

Agree

Maybe she'll learn something?

I actually thought you might be my sister posting this about our 3rd sister. The story is identical, except that my sis isn't mean or shouty.

We are convinced our sister is autistic. This is not much of a stretch as our father almost certainly is (now 84 and still working 7 days a week in very niche scientific research area) and my sons are diagnosed.

It's a tricky one as we don't quite feel that dsis is ready to hear that she is probably autistic. She is utterly convinced that it is everyone around her who is faulty.

Yes maybe she needs to see the post. Being fired once … sad and ok, let’s work through it. Fired three times for the same behaviour… entirely a her problem!

Whether she in in the right or in the wrong is immaterial - she is on a downer and being unkind to her won't help. But she really does need to take a long hard look at herself.
Perhaps a gentle chat when she visits might help - point at that everyone gets things wrong, no one is perfect and she needs to understand this when she is dealing with people. Suggest a total change of employment by all means but would she thrive on it??

How long is she staying for? I would be there for her, let her get it all out, she doesn’t have anyone else, listen to her, only for a few days.

After a couple of weeks, I would write her a kind letter with all the things you said here; suggest some therapy, hypnosis, mindfulness, anything that can help.

I find the meditations from the mindful movement in you tube very helpful. Magnesium chelated from solgar is also good for the nerves and relaxation.

I was wondering the same.

However, regardless of possible reasons for her behaviour, I agree OP should find a way to not engage over this. The sister is a grown woman who seems incapable of reflecting on her own behaviour. The best thing anyone can do to help her right now is refuse to be a wailing wall and instead encourage her to reflect on why this keeps happening.

she sounds like a covert or vulnerable narcissist. What happene din your childhood - narcissim of this sort is often made, not born. Unfortunately, it's also very common for covert narcissists to find life harder and harder as they get older. Their behaviur becomes less and less okay, they alienate more and more people etc. eg, in the beginning, she's complaining about how she has been bullied etc. Friends rally round, support and sympathy. Over time, they start to wonder why it's always her that's the common denominator. As likely, they find themselves at the end of the behaviour - the CN behaves in an acceptable way but claims it is the friends' fault etc .

Unfortunately, covert narcissists are, like any narcissist, almost impossible to get them to see the other side.

What’s the best way to have a conversation about this?

I wouldn't bother. Either decide you're just going to smile and nod, or don't have her to stay. Anyone who loses their temper and swears at colleagues, especially in front of a client, and doesn't see what they've done wrong is never going to listen.

This is an interesting suggestion.

At her age, OP's sister can certainly make a play for senior management in her next role as that would be the natural career progression from an employers' perspective.

If she wanted to avoid managing the lower ranks, she will need to have good and trusted middle managers reporting to her, who do the heavy lifting on managing the ranks from an HR and technical perspective, so she can focus on 'strategy' and engaging with other senior managers. I don't think that is a given and when she goes into a new role, she have to suss out the existing team and possibly make some hard decisions before developing her team.

The skill of a person in senior management is to spot talent, pick the right people and keep them motivated and engaged. My ex-boss was very good at that. He was personable, grew a great team and inspired loyalty. He hardly did any detailed technical work or managed us (beyond telling his managers in the nicest way by thanking us for things he wanted us to do more of) and spent most his time engaging with and mollifying the higher ups. That is also a specific people skill which I don't think the OP's sister has. I recognise that there is more than one successful way to be a senior manager as people have different personalities and strengths but some people skills along the lines above would be necessary for a successful team.

Self-employment sounds like a better option but OP's sister needs to learn to suck it up and that accept that the customer is always right if she is going to develop a client base.

Alternatively, OP should go for a technical role which has little or no management.

I'm going to echo other comments, this is not your problem to fix. If your sister can't see that shouting/swearing at a colleague, in front of a client is not only wrong but gross misconduct, then there's little hope! She has zero self-awareness, and probably has the attitude of 'it's her way or the highway'. She is correct on everything, won't listen to her colleagues, throws a wobbler when something happens she doesn't like/couldn't control and generally is an unpleasant person. You can't change this mindset or behaviour in her. Honestly, I would make generic statements 'Oh dear, that sounds tough', Ohhh, right, I see'. Be noncommittal in your responses. You've tried in the past to help her, but she dismisses your opinion and won't listen. I'm sorry to say, she won't listen now either. You live far away from each other, she visits no more than 3 times per year and isn't great at keeping in contact with you in between. Her losing her job, isn't your issue, neither is her behaviour at work.

either the 'sounds tough' and change the subject approach, or if she doesn't get the message and keeps bringing it up, suggest that she gets an employment coach.
they can:.

• assist with her job search
• help her sort out what she wants to do for her next role (she may keep running into similar problems because she's stuck to roles that aren't a good fit).
• discuss her behaviours at work & provide coping strategies
• help her settle in to her new role
• talk about work life balance, how she might improve that.

I used an acquaintance for this in a professional capacity in the past - she also does some part time work for the local council as part of their 'back into work' service. Your sister may find her local council has something similar - although they may work in less depth than I've outlined above. Have always seen an employment coach as a good investment in either securing a new role or dealing with stressful issues in a current role as a good investment.

Failing that, take her to see the film "On Falling" - so bleak about how work & life can be, I think it would temper anyone to manage themselves better in their current/next role. Unless you have the misfortune to be an Amazon picker.

As other posters have said, it's not your job to fix her. Why get yourself worked up about it? It's her life. If she wants to continue in this cycle then let her. If you feel any good will to her then let her come to you and just be. But I suggest some boundaries before she arrives and see if she can stomach them, if she can't respect your boundary then she can't come simple as that. So you could say 'I am so sorry things didn't work out with this role. I know you must be feeling pretty rotten about it all, and I am here for you, but I would ask that we don't spend too much time going over stuff this weekend. I have a lot going on myself, so expect me to change to the subject if I feel we're focusing too much on negative stuff that cannot be changed. Let's make it a positive weekend and do some fun stuff like x y z and hopefully this will cheer you up.'
Something like that. And for yourself, maybe try to explore personally why you are bothered by this? Do feel she has let you down somehow by not fulfilling her potential as a human? I really feel you need to work on accepting her as she is if you're going to have a positive relationship going forward. She will not change and if she does it has to be a choice she makes. It sounds like she is easily triggered but maybe just avoid subjects that trigger her and there's no need to get personal or analyse her character, I don't think anyone likes that tbh!

I would let her rant for the first 40 minutes then say right no more work talk, let's plan all the lovely things we are going to do whilst you are here. Then if she brings it up again just deflect. If she's shouting and swearing at people at work she's obviously in the wrong but it sounds like she won't ever accept that so don't waste your breath.

Quoting myself here as re-reading this it sounds like I think autistic people are faulty, which is not what I meant to say. I meant to say that in the particular situations that occur over and over in each work place she is convinced that all her colleagues are turkeys and she is the one who is correct - they are all at fault. She just can't see that other people may have good reasons why they aren't working 60 hour weeks or coming in at weekends or whatever, because work is her purpose (single, no kids too) she can't see that others may have families or sporting events or a party booked or whatever.

Since we had the bolt from the blue realisation that she's almost certainly autistic it has changed the way we feel about these situations from being angry and frustrated at her "bull headedness" to feeling more compassionate at her constant sense of bewilderment regarding how other people navigate working.

I wouldn't have her to stay. If she cannot see that her behaviour has led to being sacked 3 times nothing you say will change that.

My DM was like this. She didn't think she should have to work and when my DPs divorced she got a job in a supermarket. But if course she knew how to run it better, her manager was unreasonable (expecting her to be on time and do the job), and generally not getting on with colleagues or customers. But it was because apparently he was jealous of her (non existent) skills.

She’s probably ND as she sounds a bit like me before I realised I’m crap at dealing with other (difficult) people. Especially if she’s extremely competent at her normal job tasks.

I used to feel very aggrieved because the other men on the same level as me managing depts. weren’t expected to schmooze people in the way that the women managers were expected to, as it’s assumed that all women are naturally good at these things. I prefer to get the problems fixed and don’t do fake helplessness and sexy dressing, which my two female bosses were excellent at. 😂

If you think she might be ND, could you manoeuvre it somehow and do an online test for ND together and see if the penny drops?

I only realised I was ND when working through some questionnaires with my teenager who was being assessed for Autism. It was a bit of a lightbulb moment for me and if your answers are very different to hers, she might see that not everyone (who she respects) views things in the same way.

Just a thought…?

You need to listen to the Let them theory by Mel Robins.

Let her come and engage in totally neutral responses. “It was so awful they fired me and I was bullied”
You “oh dear. Fancy a coffee?”
“I’m sad about my job”
“sounds hard. Let’s take your mind off it for a couple of days because I don’t want to keep talking about it”

I presumed she’d be in her twenties, not fifties!

I like @Thunderpants88 advice above.

I'm wondering if she is bi-polar or got ADHD. I worked with a woman who has both of these conditions. She was the loveliest person ever most of the time but she swore at me in front of a load of customers (including small children) and couldn't see the issue.

You sound like a loving supportive sister. I think the first thing she needs to consider is that middle management in the public sector is literally the worst place for someone like her to work. The structure and bureaucracy are totally incompatible with her personality.

It's not fair for her to disrupt your family but I do feel for her. She needs to take some time out. Could she go away and travel for a while, she sounds very independently minded. That could proved some much needed self perspective and a fresh look on her situation.

Don't shun her, I don't like to think how they could affect her ill mental health right now. I do think a look at the repetitive cycle of roles that end badly in similar ways should give her some clear indication of his untenable the same choices are for her future career.

She needs a total reset. However this isn't your problem to fix. If she isn't prepared to take stock and accept herself as the common denominator in all this mess then she really does need a professional opinion.