My sister's been sacked - AGAIN!

[Scottysister]

Not so much AIBU but more is ISBU - Is She Being Unreasonable?

My younger sister has just been fired from her third job in seven years. Middle management in the private sector.

She’s coming to stay with DH & me in a couple of days & I’m dreading it. How she’s been picked on/bullied/forced out will be the only topic of conversation. I want to support her but how can I (kindly/nicely) point out to her that her behaviour & personality are a massive factor in what keeps happening? She just doesn’t see it.

She’s early 50’s - not had a partner for 20years or so. No children or friends either. Her work is EVERYTHING to her. She is so passionate about it & expects everyone on her team to be the same. But they aren’t. They have a life outside of work but sadly she doesn’t. Each new job is the best she’s ever had. Until it isn’t. Each new team is absolutely brilliant. Until they aren’t. I do think she gets results and is good at the technical side of her job. Just really bad at the people/relationship side. The hours she works (through choice) are ridiculous.

She’s never been a particularly easy person to be around. Very intense & tightly wound. When we see her we’re all constantly walking on eggshells for fear of saying something that will upset or annoy her. Our elderly mother in particular. Her moods can be awful & she doesn’t take any criticism well. I think over the years the whole family has avoided saying no to her for fear of the explosion of anger & moods. I don’t think we’ve done her any favours with that approach.

I live at the other end of the country so we don’t see each other that often. She comes up maybe two or three times a year. We’re never invited to stay with her. I do message but she’s not great at replying - maybe a thumbs up or a very brief reply. Just says she’s super busy at work. She rarely messages me.

The previous sacking happened because she lost her temper with a junior member of her team & shouted/swore at them about something pretty minor. This was in front of a client. She couldn’t see that she had played any role in events. Kept saying that everyone had it in for her & it had been orchestrated. That she’d been victimised, bullied etc. She came to stay after that & it was awful. Gentle attempts to point out how wrong her behaviour was, didn’t go down well at all. She said I was blaming her & she was the victim in all this. I also suggested she thought about some counselling but she said that was ridiculous & it was the others who needed it not her.

I tried to be positive with suggestions to stop it happening again. Maybe work fewer hours, take time off, get a hobby, keep it professional with the team, try & nip any issues in the bud etc etc. Clearly that all fell on deaf ears.

I don’t know the full detail of what’s happened this time yet but (again) her new team has turned against her. Reported her to HR for various things and she’s out. She sounded so angry on the phone yesterday.

I’ve read about DARVO & a lot of that seems to fit. She thinks she’s the victim because she’s been fired, but her behaviour led to it - again!

How can she not see she’s the common denominator? What’s the best way to have a conversation about this? DH & I can’t just bite our tongues for the duration of the visit. How do you talk to someone who doesn’t listen? Has anyone got any tips or advice? Am dreading it.

So sorry this was really long.

It's really hard to be fired from 3 middle management roles, she must be really bad at her job (but good at interviews).

I would message her as it sounds like a phonecall or face to face she'd bite your head off, and say that she's welcome to visit but you aren't going to be able to spend time discussing only her work situation other than supporting her by hosting her visit, and that if she's happy to visit and talk about other things then you're looking forward to it. If she pushes back just explain that this is a repeated pattern and so is the fallout, and that you feel you can't say what you think at all as it is taken the wrong way and so the conversation becomes extremely one sided and so you don't get to enjoy her company as much as you'd like to.

I had a colleague like this, mot management thankfully, who went from job to job being managed out or having her contract not renewed etc, convinced the world was against her and she wasn't the common denominator.

Don't have her to stay. Cancel it.

Nobody should be walking on eggshells in their own home with a mood drain who has all the self awareness of a hippo with a grudge.

And your poor MUM.

I'd write to her, setting out the fact that if something's happened three times it would be wise to look at the feedback and learn from it.

It's important for all to be able to seek, consider and act on feedback, and for a manager it's super important to be able to reflect and grow.

She'll be on the shock, anger, denial stages right now. It's easy to sink down and stick in the gloomy resentful depressed stage - and climbing up out of it can be hard.

Giving her an environment where she is only going to be reinforcing that can't be helpful.

I'd engage her in conversation about it, but from a distance and in writing so you don't have to listen to her or tiptoe around, especially if she will do nothing to accept accountability.

This usually gets stamped on when suggested on Mumsnet ... But does neurodivergence feature in your family? Intense special interest (IE total focus on work), difficulty forming relationships, reading others and understanding social cues and behaviour, possible meltdowns happening through overwhelm?

Why can’t she see it’s her - why can’t my dog roller skate. Because they can’t.

not up to you to save her from herself. Or have her to stay.

If it happens once, it might be her or it might be them but 3 times, she needs to see the pattern.

Stop tiptoeing about it. If she wants to kick off, fine.

But it's not your problem to deal with her responses to reasonable suggestions.

If it's anything like my sector, she needs to be aiming for senior management, not middle management. The higher you go, the people are actively looking for total workaholics, and she wouldn't have so much direct contact with those members of the team who didn't quite share her work ethic.

Maybe keep conversation to "next steps" rather than constantly rehashing how everyone's always been against her.

I’m another one who suggests that your sister becomes self employed and works by herself. I know someone similar who kept being asked to leave jobs because she couldn’t get on with people around her. She’s been very successful running her own business on a freelance basis.

This is not your problem to fix - I hope you're listening to all the people saying this and not blocking the advice like your sister!
I think stopping her from coming might be quite cruel, and a certain amount of listening and empathising is reasonable. Suggesting that she tries self-employment or some coaching might go down a bit better than your previous fixes (counselling etc) as they can be presented as playing to her strengths, rather than pointing out her faults.

Don't let her drag you down - if she goes on moaning beyond the point that you can stand, just be straight with her - "We're very sorry that this has happened, but there's nothing more we can say or do to help at this point, so we're going to go out for a walk/go to the cinema/make a start on dinner etc and change the subject for a while. Talking about it non-stop isn't helping you and we'd like to enjoy our time together".

Why is she coming to visit you?

Was this arranged before she was fired?

I really struggle to bite my tongue and not say factual information.
I have to keep my distance from people like your sister because I can’t help but state the facts.

As PPs have said though, she is a victim and will always play the victim, no matter what you say.

If you can bare it, then I would just let her vent and let it go over your head.
Trying to make her see that she’s in the wrong is likely to cause you more stress in the long run.

Once she’s gone, then I would stop making so much effort with her.

It doesn’t sound like she cares about you much, you are just there for when she needs you.

This is great advice!

all the self awareness of a hippo with a grudge.

😂😂😂@JFDIYOLO

Another saying stop trying to make her see why she’s fired. You nod and look sympathetic and if she asks what you think she should do, you say you don’t know, you’ve never seen her in “work mode” so couldn’t advise.

at most, I’d gently say something around that she never has had complaints about her work, only her management of a team and perhaps she’d be better being self employed or in a technical, not management role. That it sounds to you that the bits of her job she’s always enjoyed are the areas she’s an expert, not managing staff. Bur only say that if you think she’d be open to hearing it.

You, your husband and mum have to consider your own wellbeing, too. Clearly her behaviour troubles you all (as well as three lots of colleagues and a client).

It may be that being employed, and being in the management sandwich may simply not suit her.

Self employment, especially if she has a niche skill, may be worth looking at. I do that and alternate with employment contracts and do find it if hard to wedge back into being a team member.

Self employed autonomy, providing a very particular set of skills - suits me much better!

OP just lend a sympathetic ear, nod along, and don't offer any advice. She won't listen - at her age she's not going to change.
One of my SILs has been like this her entire life and never managed to keep a job longer than a year or two. Now she's retired, she falls out with her landlords and has to move house every year or two. It's exhausting but she will not accept that she might be the problem.

This is easy to solve. Stop being scared of her, tell her exactly what you think keep telling her until she accept it or goes off in huff and never comes back.
What have you got to lose? She will never change because people keep enabling her because they don't want to deal with the explosion, it might be too late but I would provoke the explosion and just stand there and take it.

Quick side question - OP, what was your dad like?

Did he share these characteristics?

I take it you and your mum don't?

She should go into politics.

@Scottysister you could be describing my sister in law here. You have my full sympathy. We no longer have her to stay because her behaviour is so bloody draining. There is a family crisis at the moment about someone else and she takes up every drop of the emotional energy. I cannot abide the behaviour any longer. DH pushed back on her massively during the week so very briefly her cough will be softened for a short while but it never lasts. I will say though that my DH feels better about it at the moment so I wonder if that might help here too. SIL is the same projects her unrealistic expectations on everyone she works with, no relationship, no children. She couldn’t have a relationship there would be no room for her other half in it.

@Scottysister furst of all she barely bothers with you both untill/unless she had been sacked.
Then your time is taken up with her self pity and argumentative state .
No chance !

Id call her and say the last time you came to visit you had been sacked and it caused an atmosphere and friction In my home. If you are still looking to visit then work is off topic .
We chill out and enjoy time together laughing or it’s best not to visit .

Brilliant question because my FIL shares these traits with SIL.

"She’s never been a particularly easy person to be around."

For that reason alone, I'd tell her she is not welcome to stay. Now or ever.

As for being sacked, well, thats her shit to shovel, not yours.

Cancel the visit, or if you can’t, fuck it, tell her straight.

LET her get moody, let her huff off and flounce.

she has no right to dump on you and play the victim when she is her own worst enemy

Agree.

I'd cancel the visit and tell her that she is too difficult to deal with and detrimental to your well being. Walking on eggshells round her hasn't worked and her inability to keep her job isn't your responsibility to fix. You don't have to listen to all her victim identifying shit either.

Have a look at Mel Robbins and Let Them theory. I know you want to help but she doesn't want help. Think about your own boundaries. You don't have to have her to stay. But if you do it's not your job to help her fix the mess she's in and she wouldn't be receptive even if you tried.