Gentle Parenting has failed, lets accept this.

[Zod666]

I read everyday about children's behaviour, even primary school age where they are out of control, don't fear or respect adults and this is all down to that loverly middle class BS known as 'Gentle Parenting'.

Let's just call this out for what it is, because it does not work. I have a friend who's 8 year old son does what he likes, is disrespectful, hits his mum and no amount of 'punishment' such as removal of electronic devices etc makes a blind bit of difference, he just does not care.

So how do we discipline children like this? is it really bad to give them a measured smack on the back of the legs/bum? Obviously there is a difference between a smack to correct a child and beating the hell out of them which is child abuse and should be prosecuted, and in England smacking is still legal.......

In years gone by their have always been kids that will go too far, and by this I mean the James Bulger killers who I think no amount of discipline would have changed their outcome in life, but for the majority of kids I feel we are failing them with this soft approach where there think they can do anything without repercussions.

AIBU?

You are implying that I agree with smacking. I absolutely do not. The law in England allows smacking as 'reasonable punishment' if:

• It's open-handed and not administered with a fist or implement
• It's administered on a part of the body where it won't cause harm
• It's not severe enough to leave a mark

I completely disagree with this and think England should follow the example of Wales and Scotland and ban the smacking of children completely.

I'm not implying anything; my post was perfectly clear. I'm fed up of people using the euphemism "tapping" for hitting children. Just call it what it is.

I agree it is hard work and at times you do have to look at where the boundaries are and redraw them - it is vital actually as they get older to do so but I agree the pay off is definitley worth it

Prison is full of people who had a 'tap' with an open palm as kids. Young offenders institutes especially so. Surely the first boundary that should be set with children is that we don't go around hitting people? What's the point of a 'tap' as described? Why wouldn't a parent say something instead? I'm a grown up. I've managed people in the workplace. I haven't gone around giving anyone an open handed 'tap' that doesn't leave a mark. I've just spoken to people calmly and respectfully. Hitting or 'tapping' anyone, let alone children, is abuse. And you know it.

And that is a completely fair point well made. There should be a lot more support for people who are aware that their own parents didn't do an optimal job so that they can do things differently. My mum worked it out herself, her upbringing was very emotionally and psychologically abusive, but she didn't quite get there with the not smacking - she learned that in later life and I respect her for admitting that this wasn't the right thing to do.

I have a friend who was also brought up in a very abusive family and who referred herself to parenting support when she got pregnant. Again, huge respect for her.

The problem is when people think their upbringing was absolutely fine even though it wasn't. My late husband was brought up in a very authoritarian style and he honestly thought he had turned out fine. In fact he had chronic low self esteem and developed a lethal alcohol addiction. 95% of our arguments were about parenting and he knew full well that if he ever raised a hand to our DC, I would be out the door with them. He never admitted that his parents got things wrong. It's this lack of insight that is the problem with the 'well I was smacked and it never did me any harm' brigade.

Where's the part of the body that 'doesn't cause harm'? An imaginary 6th toe? Or is it just giving the little bleeders a 'tap' on their hair? What's the point in that? Maybe just have a word? I think giving my sons a 'tap' in a place they couldn't feel it might've caused both hilarity and confusion. Best to ask them not to do things and explain why!

Have people got real data in the upbringing of prisoners ? Or is it guesswork ?

There's a ton of data. Google is your friend.

My husband is Chinese, smacking, not hitting, hitting is something very different. It's still very much common place, as it is in India and in many countries in the world.

My husband will attest that he was occasionally smacked, (not hit in anger) smacked for behaviour that he had been warned jn advance would result in that punishment.

Leaving the home without permission, taking money from his parents wallets to buy Pokémon cards etc..

This is a common parenting strategy in his home country, it is viewed by most Chinese people (accordingly to my husband and his friends) as an acceptable form of parenting in some situations.

He is now a successful doctor and not under the impression that his parents are abusers nor does he have a complete lack of social responsibility/respect for other people.

I think the reason I struggle with these threads is there is rarely engagement with another point of view. We can have strong opinions many do.

I googled ‘research into childhood of convicted criminals’. There are multiple pages of results. The first is NHS Wales (so I assume a credible source). There are at least another 10 pages to go. Even the Princess of Wales has done work in an associated area (effect of Early Years).

phw.nhs.wales/news/more-than-eight-in-ten-men-in-prison-suffered-childhood-adversity/#:~:text=“Nearly%20half%20of%20prisoners%20had,in%20populations%20outside%20of%20prison.

It's hitting. When you 'smack' a child, you hit them.
And just because it's considered acceptable in other countries and cultures, that doesn't make it acceptable.

When I was still living in the Netherlands, there was a court case around a man from somewhere in Asia who had beaten his wife so severely she needed hospital treatment. His defence was that he had hit her in a 'culturally acceptable' way. The judge wasn't impressed and he went to jail.

FGM is also a 'cultural' tradition in many countries. We don't approve of it.

It isn't a defence of any kind.

And again, your husband didn't become a surgeon because he was hit. Lots of people who are hit don't have high flying careers and happy lives. Lots of people who weren't hit, do.

Do you hit your own children? Are you happy to stand by while he hits them?

If not, why not?

I genuinely believe that smacking, is not hitting your children. I completely agree that in many cases it's born of a lost temper or borne of a desire to subjugate children. But, that's not always the case. I have talked with my PIL and heard there views on parenting within their culture a d society and can see that far from an anger response or a desire to subjugate their children, it is there to punish I know we don't like that word here, behaviour that has been for warned and explained and children who then decide to cross that boundary know what will happen when they do.

You may not agree with it, and that is fine. But I have come to respect that viewpoint. Whether or not I or my husband smack our children is not the point I am making. Yes my husband did once smack my son on the back of the hand when he kept taking other people food. This behaviour had been clearly explained as wrong on several occasions. You may think my husband is an awful man, again your welcome. I won't waste my breath defending him, as it won't change your opinion.

I was merely suggesting that our culture may shape what we think about these thing. There are many things that other cultures do not like about UK culture. Often what we do however is write off those with opposite views straight away

I genuinely believe that smacking, is not hitting your children. I completely agree that in many cases it's born of a lost temper or borne of a desire to subjugate children. But, that's not always the case. I have talked with my PIL and heard there views on parenting within their culture a d society and can see that far from an anger response or a desire to subjugate their children, it is there to punish I know we don't like that word here, behaviour that has been for warned and explained and children who then decide to cross that boundary know what will happen when they do.

You may not agree with it, and that is fine. But I have come to respect that viewpoint. Whether or not I or my husband smack our children is not the point I am making. Yes my husband did once smack my son on the back of the hand when he kept taking other people food. This behaviour had been clearly explained as wrong on several occasions. You may think my husband is an awful man, again your welcome. I won't waste my breath defending him, as it won't change your opinion.

I was merely suggesting that our culture may shape what we think about these thing. There are many things that other cultures do not like about UK culture. Often what we do however is write off

The argument let's call it a smack when we hit our children. It makes it sound better... Works both ways.

Let's describe it as hitting or beating children, it sounds worse.

Exactly. And if we look at GCSE attainment by race it's topped by the Chinese and Indians. At least 20 percentage points higher than white British. I wouldn't say it's definitely contributed due to smacking but it's due to a stricter and "non gentle" style of parenting.

I remember seeing a thread about drugs use at university sometime last year where someone said that their son told them they were the white person in their group that didn't do drugs. A quick look on our government website does show that an Asian person is less likely to do drugs than a white person.

I also remember a thread about how people were "so surprised" at how well behaved children were in South Korea. I'm not saying it's due to smacking, but it is due to strict parenting.

I wouldn't aspire to copying South Korea. It's still a deeply sexist culture where girls and women don't get equal treatment, it's the place where young people spend so much time at school and in crammers in order to succeed that they barely have a life, and right now its fabric is crumbling because especially women have had enough.

And actually, proper authoritative parenting absolutely can be strict. It just isn't violent.

I have no issue with how people choose to parent their children, do what works for the child that you have. Parent in the way that you want, I'm not suggesting anyone should change their views on this issue, I've seen gentle parenting as described by it's many advocates here work wonderfully, I've also seen it as it is described here not working effectively. I have friends who have smacked their older children, discovered that it didn't work with subsequent children and then adapted accordingly. Every family, every child, every culture is different.

I simply wanted to share another cultural viewpoint.to show that smacking is not simply the result of angry parenting lazy parenting, (insert your adjective of choice) parenting, as is so often said here.

I also have female south Korean friends who extol Korean culture. And female Korean friends who agree with everything you just said. All of whom I consider to be loving, caring respectful people.

Perhaps the type of parent who slaps their child is more likely to be the type of parent who dishes out insults & cruel jokes.

China doesn't have the best record on human rights.

It is not either/or ....

• either gentle parenting in its most extreme form that leaves a child with no boundaries.
• or - cruel strict smacking parents

There is a middle way where a child has clear boundaries enforced with kindness and an understanding of what is possible for a child of each age.

The issue with that is what behaviour is seen as undesirable and worthy of punishment, especially for girls. Have you had a look at the treatment of women and girls in China, what's generally expected of them , that there are fields of work they are completely excluded from, that there's trafficking and child marriage and many, many other issues?

You looking at your husband as a success story is a very narrow sample. What about all the other people who didn't make it? Was it because they weren't smacked? Not smacked enough? Or is it because overall it doesn't actually fucking work, it can and does cause damage and no one cares about the collateral damage, just the doctor success stories?

I’m quite surprised when comedians on social media joke about their scary mothers and there are LOADS of comments from people saying that their own mothers of (insert nationality) are the same with their wooden spoons etc.

I think that’s it is more common than one likes to think it is, especially in the USA.

So if someone chose to parent by beating / neglect / sexual abuse /all of the above ....that's ok, because you should parent the way you want??