Gentle Parenting has failed, lets accept this.

[Zod666]

I read everyday about children's behaviour, even primary school age where they are out of control, don't fear or respect adults and this is all down to that loverly middle class BS known as 'Gentle Parenting'.

Let's just call this out for what it is, because it does not work. I have a friend who's 8 year old son does what he likes, is disrespectful, hits his mum and no amount of 'punishment' such as removal of electronic devices etc makes a blind bit of difference, he just does not care.

So how do we discipline children like this? is it really bad to give them a measured smack on the back of the legs/bum? Obviously there is a difference between a smack to correct a child and beating the hell out of them which is child abuse and should be prosecuted, and in England smacking is still legal.......

In years gone by their have always been kids that will go too far, and by this I mean the James Bulger killers who I think no amount of discipline would have changed their outcome in life, but for the majority of kids I feel we are failing them with this soft approach where there think they can do anything without repercussions.

AIBU?

My kids are all in their 20s and doing well. I did probably a mix of attachment parenting, talking to my kids and firm instruction. What struck me then and more so now is that some parents just don't pay enough attention to their children/don't sound serious enough when they want something to happen or their children to take notice. You can't just waffle or take the easy way out.

It depends on how gentle the parenting is.
I don't punish my children or give them pointless times. They have boundaries and rules and understand why they have them. Sometimes they've negotiated them with me.
This doesn't mean they're always compliant. They will still push boundaries, like normal kids but I'll just tell them off and remind them what the rules are. If they've done something pretty bad, I have been known to lose my rag then it's not gentle at all.
If it's things like being on their electronics when they shouldn't be, then I'll take it off them, reminding them what the rules are.
Dc are well behaved and doing well.

Punishing children can have other affects than just correcting behaviour.
The few children I know who had the marble jar punishment/reward system seemed to be really anxious because of it.

This is how we try and raise our DC.
Let them be their own self, navigate options/decisions/circumstances etc with our guidance. They're inquisitive and they ask questions and they love to interact with others. They love communicating and connection.
They have mega high energy because they have ADHD. They're not feral because they know what I expect from them especially when out of home and they will have consequences and they know that means no gaming/YouTube.

People always say how lovely and polite they are and as long as they are able to present respectfully to the public (not feral) I don't mind the little things at home. It's their safe space and their home too. Of course it doesn't always work out but more often than not it does.
Gentle parenting definitely doesn't mean let them be little shits and get away with it. Boundaries, respect, love and compassion and FUN but not at others expense

This

I think you are confusing your perspective now as a parent and an older person, with your perspective as a child and then a teen, thinking you noticed things the same way and can therefore compare.

In truth, there is not a lot of evidence that children now are the most violent.
Parents at the time we were children were probably thinking the same things, noting how degenerated children were compared to the past.

The person you replied to is correct that many current adults are, and were as children, well capable of violence and abusive behaviour.

That is what I often notice too.

"Yes this is a true life event my child has been electrocuted, run over and mauled. They are examples of worse case scenarios that can very easily arise when children don’t understand dangers and boundaries because their parents are so obsessed with being ‘gentle’ "

So, your are not obsessed with being gentle, and your child has been electrocuted, run over and mauled.

I am gentle to my child, I gently taught him to be careful with plugs, roads and animals. He has never been electrocuted, run over and mauled.

I mean... Are you not the seller of the year?

Anybody who is against smacking on principle is often a terrible parent who sets no boundaries for their children, who are all awful selfish kids. Of course not everyone, but it usually works that way.

It really doesn't.

Children who haven't been set boundaries or who have been hit themselves and haven't been taught alternative ways of managing their emotions (or find it more diffiicult) might hit.

I've never smacked my children and, to my knowledge, they've never hit anyone. They've never even hit each other in an argument.

Why are children the most violent they’ve ever been despite being the least likely to be smacked by parents? Can you explain it?

Because there is an anxiety in some parents now. They don't want to be abusive or toxic and they want their children to always be happy. They want their children to see them as friends. They don't set boundaries, they're scared of reinforcing them. They take the path of least resistance. They won't say no. So the xhuldren learn that they, their wants, their needs, their feelings are the only ones that count and have no experience of managing themselves in an uncomfortable situation because no one has ever taught them.

And it's also parental laziness. They can't be bothered with the hassle.

Or time constraints. They just dont have time to deal with their children properly because they've got to get to work or they've been at work all day and they're knackered.

Or they confuse their children by "Jemima, darling!" them for 30 mins with no effect and then snap and end up just shouting at them which raises the children's anxiety and stress levels.

This is the problem. Not parents deciding not to smack their children.

I see it in schools - children have low/no resilience because they've never been allowed to develop it because their parents have always protected them from failure. They can't manage even small disappointments without either bursting into floods of tears or lashing out physically at the person they see as being responsible for their failure.

Children who are smacked are fearful of being hurt. They try and avoid being smacked and so are compliant (if they are) for that reason. They are not making better choices because they understand or taking responsibility for their behaviour or because they have developed empathy for other people or because they have learnt a more appropriate response. They just don't want to be smacked.

@HallieM93 the scenarios you describe are nothing to do with gentle parenting and everything to do with parents not paying attention. You say you smacked and yet those things happened to your kids. Lots of us didn't smack but taught our children caution from a young age and set boundaries, and those things didn't happen to our kids.

@GreyCarpet nailed it. Authoritative parenting is hard work. It's the gold standard, but it is also the hardest to do. Smacking - yep, easy, lazy, give in to your temper, job done. Not parenting and not saying no - yep, easy, lazy, give in to every tantrum, job done. The hard yards are in the middle ground and every young person I knew who has been parented that way - without violence but with strong boundaries, patience and good communication - is doing well and coping with real life.

Disagree.
However I will say that in many cases efforts at gentle parenting have failed, which is very different and has led to a lot of permissive parenting with a lack of boundaries. Added on to that we have many parents who are simply not parenting at all. I see this every day as a teacher. Kind, boundaried, gentle parenting, I see much less in my inner city, disadvantaged school..

It seems to have affected your mental development quite significantly.

Children who are smacked are fearful of being hurt. They try and avoid being smacked and so are compliant (if they are) for that reason. They are not making better choices because they understand or taking responsibility for their behaviour or because they have developed empathy for other people or because they have learnt a more appropriate response. They just don't want to be smacked.

Not always. Some become violent themselves either because they have a lot of anger/resentment/fear/hurt bubbling inside them, or because they learn that's how you deal with things you don't like .

Some become expert liars and /or break the rules just about enough to not actually get them into trouble.

Some become violent to themselves and engage in self harm or self damaging behaviours.

Some start weighing up whether what they want is worth the smack and sometimes it is. Even worse, sometimes the behaviour escalates because if you're going to get a smack anyway , might as well get it for something "good".

Some are completely baffled every time because they actually have no idea what they're doing wrong or the rules/goalposts are forever changing.

None of it is good for their wellbeing or for proper development and learning how to behave.

I completely agree with every word of this.

I was really only talking about smacking where parents feel it has 'worked'. But, yes, absolutely every single one of your points is correct.

As others have said, gentle parenting done properly is a type of authoritative parenting.

The best way I ever saw it explained was this.

Authoritarian parenting - strict rules and discipline. Do as I say. It's like a sheep held in a small pen. It can't move, can't turn round, can't run or express itself in anyway because the boundaries are too strict and too rigid. It can't develop decision making skills because it has no choices. It can't move.

Authoritarian parenting - rules and boundaries amd a degree of freedom to make choices within that. The sheep is in a bigger pen. It can see the fences but knows that it can move where it wants within those. It has choices.

Permissive parenting - no boundaries. The sheep has no pen. It can roam wherever it likes. The problem with that is that it can stray to far from 'home' and lose its way back. It begins to feel scared/anxious because there are no limits. It's not 'pushing boundaries' because there are none. It's trying to find them.

Gentle parenting done properly is authoritative.

There are boundaries. And they are enforced.

Eg my children had a bedtime. But that bedtime could he 'negotiated' on Friday/Saturday nights. They knew that if they got ready for bed, in pj's, brushed teeth and went to bed sensibly afterwards etc, they'd be allowed to stay up a bit later. When my son was 4, he used to sing "I'm using negotiation" when we'd compromised on something. Not everything could be compromised on (they knew what could and what couldn't) and it wasn't a free for all. They had to 'give' something in return. It certainly wasn't all their own way, but neither were arbitrary rules imposed 'because I said so'.

I never had issues around bedtime with my children. Never felt exhausted because they wouldn't go to bed, never experienced them 'pushing back' on bedtimes because they understood why it could be compromised at the weekends/school holidays but not on a school night because I explained it to them.

I've never had to 'shout' at my children because it just wasn't necessary and that was how it had been their whole lives.

Physical punishments don't work. Otherwise the prisons wouldn't be full of people who were hit and abused as children. This just teaches children that physical violence is the answer to resolving difficult situations.

It's illegal to smack if you leave a mark. A gentle tap that didn't leave a mark would probably not have the impact you desire on bad behaviour. If you hit a child hard enough to cause pain, it will leave a mark and that is illegal.

I think the smacking of children should be banned in England.

What I said was that despite the gentle parenting punishments she has tried it has made no difference, so what else does she try? she had read books on the subject and nothing works.

It's a holistic approach.

Children need to feel valued, respected and heard for 'gentler' methods to work. It needs to be consistent - chopping and changing approaches doesn't work because it creates inconsistency and uncertainty.

But the parent needs to have authority and also to be respected and trusted for the children to respond appropriately and, unfortunately, once respect, like trust, has been lost, it can be very difficult to re-establish. Authority doesn't need to be aggressive or threatening and shouldn't be something to be feared. It's more a solid belief that this person is on your side and loves and cares about you and is acting in your best interests even if feels unfair at the time. If children feel the adult is their adversary, it won't work.

Nothing will work if someone tries an approach for a few days or remembers to try it when a conflict is already underway. It takes time to establish.

Children aren't stimulus response machines. You can't just change your input method and expect to see an immediate desirable response. If her children don't respect and trust her it will be hard. They will be resistant. And if she doesn't fully understand the theory that underpins an approach, she might be saying and doing the right things in the moment but does she parent within that approach at other times too?

As someone else said, it's the hard path. But then the right path isn't always the easiest.

Not this shite again. Nobody is giving "a gentle tap" as a form of punishment. They are hitting their children.

@GreyCarpet the thing with authoritative parenting is that it starts from day 1. You start by learning to intuit, anticipate and respond to your baby's needs so that they learn they will be cared for and a good attachment is formed. You talk to them from day 1, you explain what you are doing. This helps with their speech but it also helps them understand the world - even when you think the're too young.

Once they're walking and talking, you carry on like that. You're absolutely allowed to say no, but you also need to be alert and anticipate hazards. I am gobsmacked at the poster who said that electrocution and traffic dashes had happened to their child - if you're wanting to pass the driving test, you have to pass a hazard perception test and learn to anticipate. Why wouldn't you do the same in parenting?

And then you carry on. Your expectations flex as your child gets older and can handle more responsibility, but the boundaries are always clear.

The only problem with this approach? You can't sit on your phone and ignore your child, you have to engage with them. That doesn't mean 24/7 dancing attention, they have to learn to play independently and handle being bored, but it does mean being mentally there. Like I said, hard work.

The payoff is priceless.

It is not necessary to smack to be an authoritative parent. Not at all.

The problem with authoritative parenting is that it is much much easier if that is how you were brought up

People who are trying a different approach to how they were raised because of how it made them feel - eg a parent who was hit lots - don't have the experience to get it right, and often over compensate - violent to permissive

And then things go wrong or get difficult and they don't know what to do

I would not expect smacks in authoritative - that's getting authoritarian

Is there any statistics in England at least of what type of households or what ethnicities use smacking?