Gentle Parenting has failed, lets accept this.

[Zod666]

I read everyday about children's behaviour, even primary school age where they are out of control, don't fear or respect adults and this is all down to that loverly middle class BS known as 'Gentle Parenting'.

Let's just call this out for what it is, because it does not work. I have a friend who's 8 year old son does what he likes, is disrespectful, hits his mum and no amount of 'punishment' such as removal of electronic devices etc makes a blind bit of difference, he just does not care.

So how do we discipline children like this? is it really bad to give them a measured smack on the back of the legs/bum? Obviously there is a difference between a smack to correct a child and beating the hell out of them which is child abuse and should be prosecuted, and in England smacking is still legal.......

In years gone by their have always been kids that will go too far, and by this I mean the James Bulger killers who I think no amount of discipline would have changed their outcome in life, but for the majority of kids I feel we are failing them with this soft approach where there think they can do anything without repercussions.

AIBU?

I don't agree with smacking children, but I've recently been watching re runs of Friday Night Dinner and the mum, who absolutely adores her sons and vice versa, is forever slapping them and although it is in semi jest, their reaction leads one to suspect this was what their childhood was like (ie lots and lots of love and the odd ill aimed slap)

BTW I know this is a drama, but whoever wrote it must have based it on a family type he recognised.

I think that many families from Europe randomly slap to make a point, but they are not aimed with much precision and not taken very seriously by the children.

Yeah, I gave up because the ones slating gentle parenting don't actually have a clue what it entails. Another one here who has older teens that I've never smacked and I can count on one hand the number of times I've raised my voice. They've had very firm boundaries, constant explanations about why these boundaries exist, and are amazing almost-adults with kindness, empathy, respect and drive.

Funnily enough, I also manage to control whole classes of children gently and calmly. Yet parents who assault their children can't control one child. I'll stick to my ways, and can calm the most volatile child with listening, empathy, firm boundaries and reasoning.

Parenting - gentle or otherwise shouldn’t be reactive. You should be teaching your children everyday about how to stay safe, be respectful etc.

for example since day 1 we have had conversations and modelled how to behave around animals. My children would always ask to approach a dog and have always been gentle with animals since they could walk / talk.

we have spoken about road safety whilst out and about, I have always talked about where the path ends and the road begins, the green man, looking and listening for cars, being aware of driveways. These conversations happened when they were in buggies and now I’m confident they have the skills to look after themselves near roads and vehicles.

we spoke about plugs whilst doing activities together and explained the dangers and why they must be careful and ask for help etc.

being a parent is about teaching your children, not shocking them. It really is so simple? If you have had to slap your child (slap?! wtf) you have lost control and you should take a long, hard look about why that happened and apologise to your poor kids.

In the 1950s we were very strict with parenting, and most children grew up to want to work, and had, in general, respect for their elders, and authority.
Along come the 1960s, and we said blow that; I want to do what I want, although, in fact we still held some of the values of our parents. But when the 60s kids had their own children the reins started to relax. And each generation became weaker in discipline and respect.
From my ancient perspective Society is breaking down, allowing for extremes, of the Left and Right to gain influence. The UK today, from what we hear, is totally different from the UK I grew up in. Our last visit was in 2106 and we noted major changes to our home Nation population and that reflects in societal values.
If people do what they want because no limits were placed on them as children chaos will result. If people steal and the law does nothing to stop them, If people assault others in the streets because the law does nothing to stop them. if sections of society think they have extra privilages, because of skin colour religion, sex, or self defined gender and the law does nothing to stop them
what chance do your children have of an ordered and happy existance?
Like I say, one old man's outside view of modern UK

Absolutely wild to me that people are still wondering if hitting children is OK.

Gentle parenting is not parenting without discipline, that is permissive parenting. I am a 'gentle parent' and my 3 year old understands that her parents are the ones in charge, know how to keep her safe, etc. Of course she pushes back against that occasionally, but she is 3, she is supposed to!

Please stop confusing 'Gentle parenting' (where the premise is that you treat your child like a human being) with 'permissive parenting' (where they rule the roost and live with no boundaries/consequences)

I was born mid 70s. I was raised with physical discipline, humiliation, shame, conrmpt and, crucially, without love. I knew I wasn't loved, knew my dad was pretty indifferent (or angry) and my mother actively and openly disliked me. I've had therapy - many times - and whilst I've carved out a superficially normal life, on the inside, I'm broken. It's had a negative impact on every part of my life. Whilst I now have a partner and two adult children, mentally and emotionally, I feel alone, scared and unhappy and I dont remember a time when I didn't.

When my eldest was born (i was 23) I decided to practice what I described then as 'opposite parenting'. I had no positive role models for what a parent should be but decided that, since my parents had royally fucked up raising me, in every situation, I would do the opposite to them. And consciously did so.

What I ended up doing was, I believe, what is actually true gentle parenting. I very rarely raised my voice because shouting scares me. I knew what it was like to be shouted at as a child and I didn't want to be responsible for making a child feel like that. I was terrified at having a much bigger person shouting at me when I didn't understand the words only the anger.

I never smacked/hit or physically disciplined because I lived in fear of my parents and I didn't want to make my child feel like that.

I never understood what I'd done wrong and the parameters shifted depending on my parents mood. I couldn't make choices around my behaviour because what was ok and right one day was wrong another due to the lack of consistency. There was no communication so I didn't learn or understand; I could only 'react'. So I communicated and was consistent with my children.

My parenting was proactive rather than reactive. Before doing things I explained what the expectations were and consequences. I'd grown up with arbitrary punishments and so I didn't want to do these and so there were only ever 'natural consequences' even though I had no idea this was a thing (and may not have been when my eldest was little!)

My mother sneered at me once saying, "I don't know why you talk to him, he can't understand you," and I said I knew that but one day he would. And he did.

There were clear boundaries and expectations and consequences for not following these but there was no violence, shame, humiliation, threat or fear.

I parented with empathy and respect. My aim was to create a 'space' where they both felt heard, loved, respected, safe and without fear. Where they could admit their mistakes and he accepted for who they are. I apologised for the times I felt I had let them down, which meant they also felt safe doing the same.

The result?

One child of 27 who is a graduate, did well at school (within the parameters of his SEN) who is a confident and well adjusted, kind, thoughtful, compassionate, hard working and respectful man with a good career.

And another child of 18, currently at university, who is self motivated and self disciplined, participates in a competitive team sport, works hard, is ambitious and equally kind, thoughtful and compassionate.

They both have good boundaries. Neither expects something for nothing. Both are independent. Neither has ever been in trouble at school or anywhere else, they take responsibility for their mistakes and have a very strong sense of self. We are all very close.

They have achieved things - including a self assuredness and a confidence that I have never managed and likely never will.

Neither has had an easy life -I've been a single parent for most of the time with no family support and few friends whilst working in a demanding professsional career. I've never had 'a village'. Both my children have some additional needs. There have been times I was skint. When my eldest was born, we were homeless and my mother continued to try and sabotage until I cut contact with her in my late 30s.

Again... Wrong.

I doubt mental health issues have increased. They are just more recognised now and people talk about it. Years ago people kept these things to themselves.

If people do what they want because no limits were placed on them as children chaos will result.

That is true. And it is a big part of the problem with what is happening in society and behaviour in schools.

But that is not caused by people not smacking their childen or actively raising them with empathy and respect.

I work with children daily. It's very clear to me which children have been raised with empathy and respect, which are raised in fear, which are raised with no expectations or boundaries, which are raised to believe they can do no wrong and which are raised in a haze of parental anxiety. And I've yet to be surprised when meeting/talking with their parents.

I used to work in criminal defence. Not a single defendant ever successfully raised the reasonable chastisement defence.
Many defendants were however convicted of child abuse, common assault or other offences of that nature against children. It’s definitely outdated and certainly doesn’t reflect the view courts prefer to take if a child is harmed.

Try talking to your child whilst they are beating the crap out of you...How does that work then exactly?

I get kicked, punched, nipped, spat at etc. On a regular basis, as dies DH. We're waiting to speak with CAMHS.

@Zod666 this is just really not true! I know plenty of parents who haven't smacked or shouted at their kids, and they've grown up to be respectful teenagers. If you spend time really getting to know your child, set boundaries and create natural consequences if those are broken, limit time on devices, make sure kids getting out in nature to regulate themselves, get a good's nights sleep, eat right, make sure they get the best education they can whatever form this takes, and basically enjoy life with your kids, then you cannot go wrong!

I am personally quite strict with my children to make sure all those things happen - with devices, diet, bed times. We respect one another and we promote an environment whether we all work as a team and help each other. It's not that hard to do.

I don't see how an adult could ever feel good or ok with smacking a small person. that stuff has got to eat you up?

I think take a look at your attitude and consider whether you are perpetuating a cycle of abuse, and perhaps get some therapy before exposing these attitudes to the next generation of your family?

One thing I am hopeful for is that emotional intelligence of the generation coming up far exceeds most boomers I know, my parents included.

You say it should never hurt a child and then go on to describe a ‘sharp slap’. Are you able to accurately measure a child’s pain threshold in the heat of one of those moments?

Would it be ok for that same child to slap you sharply if they feel you had done something they didn’t agree with? Or would you slap them back for that too?

Violence breeds violence.

I am so very grateful you are nowhere near my children.

Well i can say I've never hit any of my children and they've never been electrocuted, bitten by a dog or run over.

Because i supervise my kids around dangerous stuff. My children have SEN so it's a lot harder to do this than it is for most parents but it's a basic responsibility of a parent isn't it?

Particularly around my dog - because I'm a responsible parent and dog owner, the children are never left alone with the dog and i watch the dog's body language carefully and if she is showing any signs of stress, i separate them or intervene way, way before the dog feels the need to escalate to a bite. The most we ever had was a growl when my then 5yo son was a little heavy handed with her. He didn't hurt her, but she didn't like it.

That instance showed me that i hadn't been supervising closely enough, so rather than hitting my child because of my failings, i separated them, showed the dc a child appropriate image of dog behavior ladder escalation, and explained to them the hurt the dog and that's why she growled. I talked to him about how we can read dog behavior to understand how she's feeling and the importance of giving her space.

If id smacked him, he would have been very very confused about why i was hitting him, and probably ended up resenting the dog. With my approach, he learned more about dog behavior and why she had growled, what would be likely to happen if he did it again, and to develop some more empathy for the dog. It would have been easier to be a lazy parent and just smack him but how will that teach him WHY he shouldn't do something?

She's never growled again, the dc has never caused the dog to growl again and that was 2 years ago. Most of all my child isn't scared they're going to get hit for doing something that they didn't understand was wrong.

I'm still totally baffled as to why anyone need to assault anyone else in any of those circumstances.

One of my earliest memories is being smacked in public and everyone looking at me. The humiliation was huge and something I struggle with today.
A previous poster said that the issue is not gentle parenting but no parenting not allowing their children to be sanctioned by school when they don’t adhere to the rules, not correcting them when they are swearing or hitting at a young age. .

Same, I remember being smacked by my Dad. When I look back I can only remember the
humiliation and it makes me tear up even now.
I cannot remember why he did it so clearly it didn’t address the cause.

One thing it teach me was that I would never do it to my children. Mine are 10 and 5 and I would never raise a hand to them.

My job is to protect them from harm not cause it.

♥️♥️ to you, because I know how you feel x

Yeah, most parents are shit. My dogs are better behaved than most of my friends children as there are clear boundaries, which most modern parents seem reluctant to enforce.

I don’t agree with gentle parenting, but I also don’t agree with smacking a child.

Too many kids are poorly behaved nowadays and having a young child myself I see it all the time. You can tell the children who have parents who ‘gentle parent’ and 9 times out of 10 they are the little shits in the play parks or kids groups, doing whatever they want, whenever they want with no consequences.

You can be a good parent and have rules and boundaries without needing to physically hit a child.

I'm sorry to hear things are so difficult for you. My dc have adhd/asd so I have been in this position.

The benefit of the talking is that you talk to them before and after the event. Before, so they understand how to manage emotions and feelings without resorting to violence, and afterwards to explain the impact it has on you and them and work out strategies to avoid it happening again. By talking to them about what's going on and how they're feeling, NOT during the meltdown, you can begin to understand what triggered it and whether the child has any additional needs.

Talking to my dc effectively when i sense a meltdown is coming on will very often diffuse the situation before we reach full meltdown. Meltdowns usually happen in this house because the dc haven't understood what they need to do, why something is happening or what expectations are on them. In addition by talking about it so much, they can now put words to their own feelings and manage their own emotions. Our home is much more harmonious.

Authoritarian parenting had no positive effect on my children, it made everything so much worse. Hitting my dc would make them hit back. Shouting at them makes them shout back. We were all living in hell with the old fashioned parenting approach. It dawned on me that maybe my children weren't neurotypical.

So I started researching parenting techniques for ND children and just gave them a try. Once i started thinking about trying a different approach, gentle parenting has transformed our lives for the better. It is very much harder on the parents than smacking and shouting would be but it works for us. I can't remember the last time my children hit me whereas with the old fashioned shouty style of parenting, it was a daily occurrence. I still get them to do what they need to do but without the constant high stress for all involved because my children know I'll listen to them and they have the skills to talk to me about what they need in a way that we all understand.

During an event such as you describe, i agree totally that talking is pretty pointless. Wait for the meltdown to pass, try and keep everyone safe, then talk.

You're describing permissive, not gentle parenting. Your final paragraph is gentle parenting: instill boundaries without resorting to shouting and smacking. In other words, respectful and sensible parenting with developmentally age appropriate interventions.

Unfortunately with gentle parenting the two often come hand in hand and that’s the biggest problem of it, because parents spend too much time explaining instead of correcting the behaviour.

No they don't, not if you're doing it correctly.

Thank you. I toned down my post because last time I said this I was jumped by those who are ill informed. I think there is a general misunderstanding of what a defence is ie it’s not a free ticket to smack children.

They have achieved things - including a self assuredness and a confidence that I have never managed and likely never will.

You sound like an absolutely brilliant mum @GreyCarpet . You broke the cycle, and what's more, you did it on your own with only your own instincts to guide you at a time when everyone around you would have told you you were wrong. Amazing ❤

Smacking was common place in my generation growing up. No one I know is a criminal

There are a lot of teenage stabbings and violence in this generation, I doubt if any of them were smacked.

I really don't agree with tolerating dc hitting their parents either