Gentle Parenting has failed, lets accept this.

[Zod666]

I read everyday about children's behaviour, even primary school age where they are out of control, don't fear or respect adults and this is all down to that loverly middle class BS known as 'Gentle Parenting'.

Let's just call this out for what it is, because it does not work. I have a friend who's 8 year old son does what he likes, is disrespectful, hits his mum and no amount of 'punishment' such as removal of electronic devices etc makes a blind bit of difference, he just does not care.

So how do we discipline children like this? is it really bad to give them a measured smack on the back of the legs/bum? Obviously there is a difference between a smack to correct a child and beating the hell out of them which is child abuse and should be prosecuted, and in England smacking is still legal.......

In years gone by their have always been kids that will go too far, and by this I mean the James Bulger killers who I think no amount of discipline would have changed their outcome in life, but for the majority of kids I feel we are failing them with this soft approach where there think they can do anything without repercussions.

AIBU?

There isn't any. The research is in the opposite direction - violence begets violence. It's the same with our prison population.

They fully acknowledged it when I was in my 30s but maintained that it was normal and what everyone else was doing at the time. I agree it was more common back then, but I certainly don't think it was universal, having talked to other people of my age about how they were parented/disciplined - also I very much believe the degree of their punishments was abnormal in using implements rather than just smacking.

There would be no use bringing it up with them again now, as they're no longer really capable of having a meaningful conversation. It is very much a case of teeth-gritting and trying to be the bigger person.

Still in nappy’s too?

You are 100% succeeding at being the bigger person 🌺

I thought you said you "were out" OP? Evidently you're not done frothing yet about people challenging You Who Know Best.

I think you're right, let's call this out for what it is, eh? Namely you, being quite the piece of work.

Although you are absolutely entitled to have an opinion about children while not being a parent, I must confess to being quite relieved you aren't one. And I bet I'm not alone in that.

Gentle and permissive parenting are two completely different things. Gentle parenting assumes the developmental age of a child is ripe for corrective interventions and appropriately applies those interventions based on the maturity of their neural connections. It doesn't mean there is no cause and effect, it means that young children learn better from calm, short explanations once the dust has settled than they do from shouty punishments while they're still in fight or flight mode. It's underpinned by sound psychological, behavioural and biological scientific research.

Permissive parenting means just letting them do what they want, when they want, with no form of corrective intervention. With respect op, it doesn't sound like you understand gentle parenting.

And if your friend is applying rewards and consequences for behaviour management which don't seem to be working, then there are 3 possibilities:

She is not consistent in applying them.

Her methods are not consistent with the child's developmental age.

Her child has undiagnosed SEN.

It's largely about setting a boundary/expectation and consistently sticking with it, especially with toddlers, then following through on any consequences.

Thinking of examples from when I had my own toddlers:

• throwing water in the bath/dumping it onto the floor. First off, redirection onto an acceptable version of that such as pouring water between two cups/jugs or pouring a cup of water back into the bath water. A reminder in simple language of "water stays in the bath" (or words to that effect). If it persists then a firmer reminder and a consequence of "if you keep spilling them I'll pull the plug out and bath time is over". Praise if they stop but if they don't then follow through and unplug it.

• drew on the wall. Express disappointment, "who did this?" to give an opportunity to be honest about it, let them know you know it was them. Ask if they think it was a good choice? Why do they think that? Use their answers to form the discussion (depth of which will depend on language skills). Get them to help clean it up and then no more pens/crayons for the rest of the day, they go up on the shelf out of reach, oh dear how sad.

• throw a toy? Toy goes away and doesn't come back out the rest of that day.

• hit me? I will put you down, I can't hold you when you're hitting. Wait a few seconds, remind about gentle hands (or whatever words you use) and pick back up. Repeat as needed.

• hit other children? Instant removal from the situation.

• screaming tantrum on the floor? I used to totally disengage, step slightly away but still within a range of 4-5 feet, and leave them to it. Anything I could say or do would only fuel it and tantrums were infinitely shorter without any attention fueling them. Once calm, talk about what happened (and as an adult, consider what the trigger might have been so it can be better managed next time)

• refusing to hold a hand? Reins go on. We had backpack reins and they were non-negotiable. They would have them on for leaving the house but with the parent strap tucked in and I would set the expectation of "you hold my hand/walk next to me or I hold the backpack"

With toddlers it's a fact of life that you will sometimes need to leave a location with them under your arm surfboard style or over your shoulder fireman style. I promise they grow out of it.

I think in my day I would have used time out or naughty step.. Got down to her level, explained clearly why she was being put on it, carried her to it, kicking and screaming, put her on it; if she moved, put her back on it . Never arguing but calmly saying, “you’re sitting here until you applogise for XYZ. Then I would continue to do that … even if it took over an hour … until I got an apology with feeling. You should never be scared of a 4 year old - physically or mentally - you’re the parent and the adult.
Once I’d received apology - however long it took - I would do something nice - play with her favourite toy, or hide and seek for a bit.
Then repeat if something naughty happened again.

Always prefer the nice part and was a big believer that the more play and games and interaction DC got - the more they listened to me. Not sure if this is nasty or gentle but it’s effective.

This sounds really positive and it seems to be working well for you all. Much better than letting things escalate until you end up hitting due to feeling dysregulated. I bet the kids safer knowing you're in charge, too.

I would be having a conversation with my toddler. All they need to understand is that they have hurt someone with their actions. That is consequence enough.

So your friends kid is awful 'because of gentle parenting'....but you acknowledge punishments like removing tech don't work anyway.

You think it's ok to smack kids

I'm assuming you're a troll

Wait, you told another poster “wait until they are 5-8 and your mind will change!” but you don’t even have kids?!

It’s very easy to know how to be a perfect parent if you don’t have kids!

Many a toddler and child and adult would laugh if they did something wrong and were told "that hurts me "

sone childen respond well to that ( actually I suspect the are responding to hearing the disappointment in the voice and the disappointment triggers a fear)

Other don't care

I'm sure that there is more than one way to make a violent child.

Again, I am not in support of hitting kids, but a lot of parents are so ineffectual that kids know they can pretty much do what they want and there will be no consequence.

Anyway, that's all moot because I bow to your epic username #JazzMaverick

It certainly pissed me off way before I had kids cus I had to teach the little shits! 😂

But your friend hasn’t followed gentle parenting practices. You mention in you OP taking electronics away as a punishment - this is not a natural consequence to something like hitting, and that can be confusing to children as it doesn’t set a clear boundary and they can find making links between their behaviour and the consequence difficult.

your friend needs to get to the bottom of why he’s hitting, in what situations is he becoming so unregulated he gets violent.

how is it not lost on you that punishing children with the very behaviour we want them to stop doing is complete madness?

I would also suggest your friend reconsiders her 8 years olds access to electronics on the first place - this may well be impacting his behaviour a lot.

I'm not entirely sure what "gentle parenting" is, as the definition seems to differ from person to person. My parents are very much advocates for smacking. I'm trying to get my 2 year old to use the potty but he has no interest whatsoever. I asked my mum for advice, she said when he says no/refuses to sit on potty just smack him 🤷‍♀️ (I haven't btw). That being said she's also very proud of the fact that at age 13 she got so fed up of being smacked that she hit her parent back one time and she was never smacked again. She was badly behaved at school both before and after this from what she's told me. I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but on the purely anecdotal data of both of my parents who were smacked themselves and are pro smacking, it didn't help them behave. My dad was sent away to boarding school at 14 because his behaviour was so bad, he said his parents thought it would straighten him out (it didn't as it happens he still misbehaved and was either kicked out or nearly got kicked out not sure which it was, and both my parents became hard working decent people as adults despite their turbulent childhoods). Ethical considerations aside I don't think its as simple as smacking = well behaved, no smacking = feral as from what I've seen (& yes I was smacked as a child too), it simply doesn't work. All it taught me personally was - don't get caught! 🤷‍♀️

I suggest she find a different approach and parent in a way that’s more effective for her. It’s sensible to abandon a method that isn’t working. It’s important whatever style she finds adheres to her own individual nature as a mum and doesn’t feel prescriptive, forced or unnatural.

100% Correct, but you are going to get hung on this forum for common sense!

I have got two very stubborn, head strong kids with big personalities who like to push boundaries.

They are also fantastic company, well mannered and considerate of others. That’s the result of consistently following through on consequences. And yes, there have been times where they have ‘spited’ themselves as they dug their heels in.

I have never smacked them.

It’s not common sense. It’s illegal in most of the UK. Except for in England where it’s still legal and yet I don’t think your kids are any better behaved than in other parts of the UK do you?

I think my kids would agree that I'm not a gentle parent by any measure but I don't smack them! I was bought up with smacks (rare but often threatened) and it didn't do me any harm but there is no way I would do that to my children. We live in different times and it is an abuse of power.

What if it's not "consequence enough"? You might feel it's a consequence for the two year old to be engaged in a conversation, but the person or people who will miss out or suffer if something of theirs is damaged might not - it has to be balanced and there does have to be an actual consequence which is visible sometimes. I'm not for hitting, but sometimes something stricter than a chat is called for.

I was smacked regularly as a child. I started hitting back. I obviously know that hitting is wrong now. I wouldn't smack an adult who got something wrong at work. Yes children should have consequences but smacking is not okay. Smacking did stop me from doing certain things again but i had no understanding of what i had done wrong.

Consistent parenting, consistent boundaries and an expectation that they will do as asked. Also all the adults being on the same page. You need to know that if you say they can’t have a biscuit and make it clear you’ve said that to all other adults in the house they then say the same if child asks them. That way there is no confusion in the child’s mind. No biscuit means no biscuit, not that grandma will sneak me one, or dad will get one even though mum said no.
Young children don’t need lengthy explanations either. No means no because mum/dad knows best and is in charge.

I think an odd smack has a place in certain circumstances and if you watch other animals most mammals do discipline with physical reprimands so I don’t think our urge to smack is actually unusual when it comes to keeping our young ones in check. Toddlers need more immediate reprimands than older children who are then able to understand the verbal explanations.