Constantly disruptive child in my daughter's class

[waitingforsainos]

DD is Y6 and this other child seems to be causing so much trouble in class every day, shouting at the teacher, slamming doors, flicking light switches on and off, randomly screaming in the middle of a lesson when they don't want to do the work, mouthing off if other kids get to do something different because they've behaved well. DD says it's every lesson.

On the whatsapp group, the child's mum has said it's not their fault, they've got an ehcp for semh (think that's mental health?) and has laughed at the teacher when she's been asked to go inside to talk at the end of the day.

From the parent chat, it sounds like the child has had a few suspensions but doesn't seem to have made any difference.

AIBU to expect more from school? What would happen in your child's school if someone behaved like that?

Not really. It’s not in their nature.

It was all so odd. I think it came about as I used to be that parent who could flex hours at work and help out on school trips and do crafts etc at primary school and the bully saw that my child had a settled home life and took out her distress at her own home life on my child. helping at school was a big mistake.

I know I have the capacity to be a dick,a real dick. I know I speak sense regarding what I'm saying here.

Do you believe that in a classroom, a female will be getting physically beaten and targeted as a subject of that person's perceived ire, daily, with no one stepping in saying no way?

Do you believe that an ND pupil will deliberately target a female pupil and beat them up daily in the classroom with no reaction from anyone? That any teacher would witness this and not feel compelled to do something about such a violent targeted assault aimed at an NT female ( being female is important here too) in the classroom daily?

I took the poster to be referring to it happening at school in the wider sense - playground, in the toilets, on the bus home or in the general school area. Maybe she’ll come back and clarify, though I also think she may not be referring to a specific case and maybe only making a general point.

No, I absolutely wouldn’t expect that if that happened in a classroom there wouldn’t be an intervention.

It was my child and it was school grounds, toilets, way home from school and in class. Once when it happened in class the teacher was fairly badly damaged from a flying chair and a bin. They had just come back room a period of ill health too. The bully then fled and I was called at work to come to pick up my child as the school couldn’t protect them as they couldn’t find the bully.

Any my child went in the next day, to find the bully sat next to them. No suspension. No exclusion. Nothing.

It was at that point we decided on private.

If a child was tormenting mine on a daily basis, I honestly couldn't give a shit about any of that. I would just want them somewhere else. Failing that, if my child was inclined, teach them to smash the bullies teeth in. It's interesting how that can often override the "chaotic" home lives or nd or whatever. Almost like those things are just an excuse.

Often (not always) ND or SEMH children do need a totally different style of education to that in MS schools, so there is evidence that it helps both groups. The sticking point is the extremely high cost of that education relative to MS and the increasing number of children needing it. Nobody on this thread has come up with a way to square that circle, so we continue to play our children off against each other. It’s very sad and I don’t know the answer. But smaller classes and targeted support is very staff-intensive and will never be cheap.

My approach would be the same as yours.

I know full well that my child would get into trouble at school for retaliation, but I’d absolutely make sure they knew that they did the right thing.

Torment my child, you’re fair game. No exceptions for whatever background home circumstances they come from.

Bullying is something else. Managing bullying is an issue that is in my view and experience, completely ineffectually addressed. What the answer to this particularly problem, which is not about being ND,I do not know.

ND / NT whatever, it doesn't matter if the real problem is deliberate and targeted bullying.

I would like to see that addressed and I have no idea how. My child's school bully is incredibly smart, they're not ND. They have home issues. When there are home issues, I have no idea what school can do to help those home issues.

I fantasise about running over this boy who is cruel and relentless and covert in his bullying, something NT children are more skilled in doing to the Autistic pupils; just saying.

But I can't run the child over and I prefer to explore and logically accept all the problems feeding everyone's frustration right now.

But this is a failing within schools. It’s crazy to not remove a child who is violent. To allow a bully to continue bullying without consequences and no exclusion.

It’s known bully mentality though to pick on those weaker, someone standing up makes it stop. It’s not using it as an excuse though, that’s just how bullies operate.

If someone was bullying my child like that I wouldn’t want them anywhere near either, but I can still have empathy that a child has grown up in a situation that has given them no options but to behave in this way, and I’d hope that someone could help them instead of just write them off as a violent scumbag.

That's a very literal interpretation of what I said.

If you need me to spell it out.

Many of us were excellent theoretical parents who knew exactly what they would theoretically do and how they would theoretically behave in situations with our children. Some of us were even teachers whose children had not yet started school who could so easily see why Johnny and Tracey misbehave. Many of us have had to learn humility in parenting and that not everything is as simple as it seems when your life experience involves talking to other parents and nurturing your own toddler.

I certainly bloody well did. Who knew that my gorgeous, happy, sweet natured, clever, desperate to learn, top of the class 4 year old would spend from ages 17 to age 23 in bed in a darkened room dealing with autistic burnout and a depression so severe that we thought we would lose them? Would spend the two years before that refusing to take any notes in class and/or asleep in the SEBD department? Would scrape 4 GCSEs? And not make it to uni or even into work?

I certainly saw things in much more black and white terms back then.

@Ablondiebutagoody people can absolutely agree with your emotions. Read all our posts. I wish tbh my Autistic child could find it to punch their very NT bully in the face. He just can't. He's already at capacity trying to act ' normal'.

Where we are left thinking, jeez come on is when the ' it's just excuses mantra comes out'.

Can I reference the logic and arguments with examples put forward here by the posters who are parents of children being blamed as the ' excuse brigade '. If we compare it to the logic and the articulation of the other group. It's just clear as day who speaks and articulates from a more experienced and aware position.

People just don't want to hear it and have no desire to listen or hear it when presented with information that's pretty compelling.

It goes back to my original point, prejudice. I'll add ignorance.

Everyone's a theoretical parent before they are a parent. How many people give it the old “I would never let my child eat Nutella, that’s just lazy parenting” and then their 2 year old is having it daily with breakfast?

I can think of multiple things off the top of my head that I didn’t think I’d do when I had a child, and did do. Totally normal.

I absolutely accept that there are living experts on this thread with years of experience in the trenches, so to speak. But I maintain that we all should appreciate that nothing is black and white here. There are many genuine parents who must burst their arse every single day to provide the care their child needs (and to advocate for it at school). I just can’t subscribe to this view that there are not plenty of exceptions to this - people who are diluting the scarce SEN resources even further because they essentially diagnose their own child.

@NC28 show me those parents. The ones diagnosing an ND condition because they just can't be bothered to parent. Where are they?

It's in your mind. It's a narrative that meets an aim.

The narrative ' they're eating the dogs', that's meeting an aim. Maybe it's much more than prejudice. Maybe it's something else, I don't know what.

No one wants to claim a situation where their kid is Autistic when in reality they are just in need of parenting. No one! It's a very devastating situation because it's just not compatible with school and acceptance. No one is saying I'd love to say my child is Autistic because it gets me off the hook.

Show me those people. Logically explain why anyone would take that mantle on when it's nothing but rejection and stigma. It's not realistic or believable, again.

I am trying not to be patronising btw, it really is a character flaw! 😆

My child doesn't bully, they get overwhelmed and silly and he has hurt other pupils ( they stick up for there friends and unfortunately the friends know that they will do this and actively encourage this).
They are vunrable as there so called friends will get him into trouble because they know he will have to fight there cause while they sit back and watch.
My child has an incredible sense of justice and hates anyone being upset or wronged so instead of telling a teacher they take it upon himself to be a vigilante.
He is 10 but has the social and emotional intelligence of a 4 year old (yes he has been tested by the EP).
He just doesn't have the tools to be able to deal with these types of situations so adults need to be his tool until he does.

No child should go to school and be frightened or bullied 100% there should be a better way but we all know it will cost money regardless of why a child is bullying.

There is 1 TA to share for yr4 yr5 and yr6 in my child's school (my child has there own 1to1) how on earth can they appropriately watch and help all these children.

No one wants to claim a situation where their kid is Autistic when in reality they are just in need of parenting. No one!

There have been posters on MN posting from their experience as a diagnostician, saying that they have gotten verbal abuse from parents having concluded that the diagnostic threshold wasn't met. Are you saying that every single one of these posters is a liar? That every child who has ever been assessed for autism has always been diagnosed with it because the behaviour displayed is never the result of childhood trauma or adverse experiences in childhood? Every single parent seeking a diagnosis is absolutely 100% honest and devastated by the result?

I'd have agreed with you if you'd said that such people are a minority but saying that every single person in a group is anything is as ridiculous as claiming that no NT child has ever been hit on a daily basis at school. Life is much more nuanced than that.

It’s a bit like benefits bashing. There is always a poster whose brother’s cousin’s best friend’s dog walker is getting £5k a month by lying about his MH, and riles up everyone on the thread. In the real world, disabled people who really need PIP scratch their heads and wonder how that’s possible, when they get £2.50 and can’t make ends meet. And the actions of those who do swing the lead (and are the minority) stigmatize and tarnish genuine claimants.

I have to say I don’t recognize these self-diagnosing parents and I have been in the SEN trenches myself for many years. If a child is not diagnosed, it’s usually because the waiting list is 5 years long and the parents can’t afford to go private. Unless we are talking about parents with actual diagnosed Munchausens-by-proxy, I suspect faking disability in your DC is rare as rocking horse shit.

I agree about empathy and not writing a child off if they are bullying, there may not be an excuse but there are reasons .

I don't think it should be seen the same as a meltdown though or being ND, being a bully isn't listed as a disability and the child just needs to be taught better ways to interact with others. They aren't disabled .

why is the trauma from bullying somehow seen as less serious than a chaotic home life? I don't think my home life was all that great tbh, but I was bullied very badly. This was a private school, no deprivation or poverty. So some of us had less than ideal home lives of parenting but it's hardly a justification

@Vinvertebrate Of course it’s a minority (in the benefits space, the statistics bear this out too) and the majority shouldn’t be judged according to the minority.

It’s the insinuation that every single parent of a child with a suspected ND is perfectly honest, that gets backs up, the same as the suggestion that no NT kid has ever been hit daily. It doesn’t make a person look like they can participate in a debate on these very difficult issues if they’re unable to refrain from painting different sides in such black and white terms.

I think I follow what you're saying but apologies if I'm misinterpreting the last bit ....

I'm in disbelief that any credible diagnostic professional would come on MN to complain about challenges to their diagnostic process. I am finding it hard to believe, if this did exist. A fully qualified, professional psychiatric assessor coming on here to moan about it? Really? How many are likely to do that. Show me them please??

In order to assess according to NICE guidance and to follow a procedure that is absolutely thorough and multi disciplinary in its approach ( I'm familiar with the entire process), you are unlikely to also be someone coming on here moaning about parents! Unless you are low in the food chain in CAMHS for example, they may come here for a moan. Understandably as their conditions of work are pretty demanding right now.

So yes, if you want to show me those posters, I will call them not so much a liar, but probably breeching significant confidentiality rules and likely bullshitting their story. More likely it's a man on the street pretending they are assessing people.

Do some people want financial support for their disabled kids and think I need that diagnosed. Well I understand that. This stuff costs thousands. It's ok,I pay myself for my child's thousands and thousands worth. I absolutely had to get that diagnosis to encourage the school to support the need. So of course, when I realised how very Autistic my son is, I knew I needed this.

If someone had got that wrong, I would have been devastated. But I knew, followings such a thorough assessment process, they weren't getting that wrong.

Are you familiar with every part of an Autism assessment process? Are you familiar with NICE guidance on this? I will suspect the answer is no.

The narrative is ridiculous. The focus on that is exaggerated. All these fables are just exaggerated.
I am sure there are unscrupulous people but let's get it in proportion and perspective.

I think prejudice would be saying that absolutely NO ND children should be in MS schools. Or even, no autistic children should be, or no children with ADHD should be. I haven’t seen anyone saying that on any of these threads.

Of course it can work with additional support, and of course it’s a good thing for NT children to learn that others do find life harder to navigate sometimes than they do.

But when it crosses over in to violence or heavy disruption to other children’s education (including the many ND children who can do well in these settings) whether targeted bullying or not, those children need to be removed.

@khaa2091 I'm so sorry. Trauma from bullying really does go deep into the limbic system and affects us very deeply. Mine happened at a nice private school too. As far as I know the kids didn't have autism or ADHD nor were they in care or refugees. So no excuse, really.

@Errors yes I agree with you.

It's just there's nowhere for the ones that really aren't coping. Not coping does not equal incapable. Highly intelligent individuals might behave in ways that aren't ok for anyone, because they can't manage in this environment.

There's nowhere.

The ones that do ok, they usually burn out, schools will also push them to meltdowns when they possibly wouldn't have if schools just did what they need to.

But again, who shouts loudest takes one from another one atm. I don't blame schools for what I feel they are being forced to do. That'sto often lie, smoke and mirror through a problem and neglect one for another.

Schools are being pushed to break point themselves.

And where are these children going? Because most parents with children you are describing would be over the moon if they were removed and given a place where they were being appropriately accommodated.

There just aren't enough special schools for the actually severely affected ND kids. For those kids who are bullies the discipline and consequences don't seem to be affective. I don't know what the answer is!

for the parents of the former yes I expect they would be delighted to see their children in a place where they could thrive.

for the parents of the latter, they more likely to be dysfunctional themselves, neglectful maybe and sometimes with an attitude of "my angel would never do that!" I think parents of those types of kids honestly believe their kids can do no wrong and probably think they shoot 🌈 and moonbeams out their chocolate holes.

Bullying is a distinct problem that I feel is not addressed. It is not addressed in school adequately. All people can perpetrate this.

It isn't addressed in the grown up world really if one is in a vulnerable position and unable to just remove themselves.

We have a problem with behaviour that is right up towards sociopathy playing out in front of us on the global stage - a whole other thread. 😆

I too am an individual who experienced bullying ; systemic ongoing abuse and bullying from birth by my own family. 🙏 We all get it here.