Constantly disruptive child in my daughter's class

[waitingforsainos]

DD is Y6 and this other child seems to be causing so much trouble in class every day, shouting at the teacher, slamming doors, flicking light switches on and off, randomly screaming in the middle of a lesson when they don't want to do the work, mouthing off if other kids get to do something different because they've behaved well. DD says it's every lesson.

On the whatsapp group, the child's mum has said it's not their fault, they've got an ehcp for semh (think that's mental health?) and has laughed at the teacher when she's been asked to go inside to talk at the end of the day.

From the parent chat, it sounds like the child has had a few suspensions but doesn't seem to have made any difference.

AIBU to expect more from school? What would happen in your child's school if someone behaved like that?

In your example further up, the gobby sweary bully?

Within the classroom he will undoubtedly need more time and attention on him (special needs, or additional needs if you prefer).

Writing him off at the stage as scum of the earth will mean that in a few years time he may well be the dreadful parent of another scummy child creating chaos.

With some support he is more likely to be able to turn around his upbringing and leave his not terribly nice childhood behind.

What’s going to have a better effect on the future U.K.?

Also, my bullies were NT. but because I was the weird, shy, fat girl who wasn’t popular at all the teachers didn’t give a shit. That is so often how it happens. Not the violent in your face big reactions displayed by traumatised ND kids who shouldn’t be in mainstream school, but the deeply scarring psychological bullying done in a covert way that NTs can do so well!

@EarsUpTailUp this resonated with me and I believe hundreds who might read this. You know this, you live it and have awareness way beyond most people here ❤️.

That line where you highlight the capacity of NT kids to demonstrate cruelty through covert behaviour that is so difficult to manage and pindown when ND kids are the target. Yes, our own situation is exactly that. And this insipid psychological daily warfare regularly aimed at ND kids ( secondary school level this kicks in), is far beyond destructive and damaging than any Autistic meltdown triggered by stress and anxiety of living this life and being forced into mainstream.

And of course, supporting the needs of NT kids who are so determined to behave so cruelly in tandem with consequences if needed is really the intelligent approach. To try prevent the creation of the 'gobby mum type' we are seeing highlighted.

It just feels a bit hopeless, with threads like this.
It’s like trying to advocate supporting SN children makes you the problem, when actually if these children are supported better everyone benefits.

By saying this it’s being twisted that we’re saying that violence should be accepted in the classroom, when that’s far from the truth. Better support for some is not being in a mainstream classroom.

The problem is that the whole system has been chipped away until it’s not fit for purpose, but just like the economy is blamed on “benefits scroungers”, the demise of the NHS blamed on people going to A&E, in schools it’s currently SN children.

If it helps. The majority of children in my school who disrupt a class are not Sen. For Sen we can have behaviour plans which help with meltdowns and changes in the day. Our aim is to meet their needs and be inclusive. It works.

For children who suffer trauma and unrest at home we’re struggling. These are the children who will throw chairs, punch, swear. No respect for adults because why would they? It’s not a diagnosis but environment. Something which school cannot fix.

But they can be better supported, and with this behaviour may need an EHCP or a referral for a place at an appropriate school (BEMH I think is one type, and PRUs where they haven’t been closed or academised) where they can be helped. You don’t have to be disabled to have SN and to have support needs.

There should be measures in every single school that allows teachers to keep themselves and their pupils safe - we’re told time and again that teachers’ hands are tied in this respect - which is dangerous and unacceptable.

There used to be an amazing PRU locally, where children like these would go and attend much smaller classes with experienced teachers who really helped to turn around lots of troubled teens, it was an amazing school.
It was turned into an academy a few years ago and troubled teens are now managed out very quickly, to go to any mainstream school that will take them where no doubt they create havoc.

It’s so sad.

And it’s often other SEN children who are the victims of children like that. My adopted DD1 (nearly 16) has FASD and is being assessed for epileptic after having a major seizure on Christmas Day last year and several mini seizures. She’s being bullied by another girl with SEN, who was previously expelled from several other schools. It’s made being at school very stressful for her, on top of everything else that she’s coping with.

We are failing our children by allowing persistently disruptive children to rule the roost and ruin the education of those who actually want to learn. I can't see how it does the disruptive children any favours either as it shows them that that kind of behaviour is somewhat acceptable and then they go out into the real world and find that it is not.

You are very welcome to come to my house and try your magic and that goes for everyone saying that "they are behaving that way because there allowed to"!
Do you know how depressing it is day in and day out to have this attitude from people that have no idea what it is like?

To have your child punch themselves every night because they know what they do is wrong but when there frightened and scared they can not stop.

To have begged for help for years telling professionals that if we didn't get any help this would happen!
Even though my child has 3 diagnosis and has had 2 of then since they were 4.

To have no choice but to send then to school in a room on there own with one other adult because they can not cope in a classroom and if you take them out the LA and any little bit of support you might get will be taken of you.

Again I'm not saying there are children who are behaving in this way not due to sen but esp in young children there must be something going on most behaviour is there for a reason and even if in the tiny minority that it is the parents fault it still isn't the childs.

I don't want my child in a school they aren't welcome in trust me, I want them somewhere they will get the help and support they need and be happy!
My child has a mentor and the first thing they said they liked me mum, heartbreaking that they feel no one likes them.

I don't want any child or adult for that matter to suffer I just want my child to be somewhere that Can support and give them somewhere they feel safe enough to not feel so unhappy.

I'm not prepared to go along with these sweeping generalisations over labels anymore. I am focusing on behaviours.

^

This. With bells on.

Behavior not labels!!!

The vast, vast majority of children DO want to learn but some of them have more barriers in their way than others.

Children do well if they can.

Speaking about children as though they're feral beasts is wrong.

This is all such a shame and will only get worse. The child themselves is being failed, as are all the other children who have to sit through it each day.

Does it make any difference if you wait till children are 10, get police involved for assault as pp suggested, and then tell Leadership that your child isn't safe as a safeguarding issue?

I agree entirely. I will go along with this on some element because I know it's a language that some posters only understand. I can empathise emotionally with the feeling:

' this horrible shites hurting my child ' - for some here that's just a knee jerk reaction if they feel their child is suffering.

Others here are doing it from another place, that's ignorance, lack of awareness, fear, prejudice and underlying hatred of Autistic and ADHD children. (Yes it is and people struggle to hide it).

I am a mum to an ND child. And even I try extend forgiveness and compassion to these posters trying to word salad round what is simply hatred of those in a group they just want far away from them and their kids.

A bit of education and understanding goes a long way and we can present here all day long how it's all just behaviour reflecting a need. When posters continually ignore the excellent argument with explanation and debate presented by some of us, it just re enforces the reality that people do not like ' different '. And it does not matter what suffering is causing that ' different ' behaviour.

There is definitely ignorance around certain conditions.

It’s good that you can empathise with the emotional feeling of someone hurting your child and the visceral response that might trigger in someone. I’m one of those parents (though I’ve never actually been in the situation) who would react strongly.

I do think (hope) that most people appreciate that the provision for extra input at school is sorely lacking, and 99% of us would agree that in the current system there are no winners - just a whole lot of kids being disadvantaged in different ways.

Although the issues with LAs, lack of funding and all of the other barriers mentioned throughout this thread are clearly correct and accurate, for most parents that all falls by the wayside when their kid is injured, tormented or doesn’t want to go to school anymore.

Most parents probably don’t care that the LA has no money or that the child who threw the chair at their kid’s head has a certain condition. It just doesn’t matter while your 6 year old has a black eye or is crying at night because they’re scared of a classmate. Maternal instinct is too strong for that, so I think it probably evokes a response where any understanding or empathy for the one doing the harm, is non-existent.

@NC28 do the school offer you any words of support or reassurance that they can manage this? If a child is throwing a chair at your child's head; also given them a black eye?? Yes I'd be pretty bothered about that, even though I might understand what's going on there with the child. That doesn't remove that problem. I'd be pissed with a chair at my child's head,yes. They would need a 1 to 1 at the least who should be able to pre empt that and have them separate.

That sounds like a situation where that school isn't right in any way and it's laughable the Local Authority are doing this. They are forcing this situation.

That type of behaviour I would say would put one higher up the priority list for a special school than say my own situation where violence is not happening. ( Usually the case but there are I am aware situations like you describe).

What a mess this all is.

That was just a hypothetical scenario based on the type of things mentioned on this thread as well as others. My LO hasn’t even started school so I’ve never been in that position myself. I do dread it though, because I know I’d be bloody furious and wouldn’t let the situation lie.

It is a pitiful state that our system is in.

I think it's pretty rare to be honest that you have behaviour that severe in mainstream. If so it would be minimal before they were whipped out.

If someone got hurt in that way you and I alluded to, the school would be struggling to keep them in there for long. They wouldn't want to.

I completely disagree with @Wishyouwerehere50

It's not hated, or phobic or prejudice, not pre-conceived. It's just that people want their children taught in a setting where they are safe, keen to learn, happy.

Societal expectation is to expect people to behave, at work, school, restaurants, aeroplanes, cinema, everywhere. Disturbances are not ok, but we can all accept minimal disruption, a crying baby, but if it goes on long term most expect effort and action eg for the disturbance to be removed, eg mum realises her crying child means no one can hear the film at the cinema so steps outside.

If a child has such severe sn that they need a different school then ideally they would be placed. If that often doesn't happen due to lack of availability, and lack of money, then that is an issue in itself.

But it's not fair to the child themselves. Nor to the other 29 children in the class for that child to be in the wrong setting, disturbing the 29 other children's education.

@Oblomov25 well I agree with everything you say.

People just want to get on, they want their kids to get on. The system doesn't work as it is because people just can't get on really. It works for no one.

However, there is absolutely an underlying dislike apparent from adults imagining situations in their mind already and reacting emotionally to pre empted situations where their child has a chair thrown at their head. ( It hasn't even happened ).
This is prejudice and it's absolutely rife on here and throughout MN.

And I understand it. I forgive it. Because one bad experience from my neighbours cats dog can feed a narrative that rings true. And that narrative is that SN kids can be unlikeable, they often are which is sad. They absolutely do evoke a strong rejection from peers instinctively. For the kids, they can't be blamed for that; they react on instinct and think, no thanks if they're witnessing things they don't understand.

The parents though, who buy into and perpetuate falsehoods such as thinking ND kids are beating and terrorising their NT kids. That situation is not happening. That's prejudice and a little bit of hatred.

But I haven't seen such hatred on this thread. Who said sn dc are unlikeable? And physical assault chair throwing at head is bad. But what's probably more damaging in low level disturbance, a sn child in mainstream school when they probably shouldn't be disrupting class and meaning teacher can't teach as they should. Often it's the low level constant disruption that's more damaging.

Tbf op is talking primary, y6. I'm currently more focused on ds2 sitting GCSE's. No disturbance in his classes fortunately, in the high sets for maths, eg set 2 and 3, there are kids who want to do well, they knuckle down and get on, wanting to get high grades.

There’s an underlying message in these threads that is quite clear that our children are inconvenient to others, the sense that their dc deserve to be educated free from dc like ours.

There are a few posters who I believe are posting in bad faith for whatever reason, as they ask lots of questions but twist the reply to suit their limited understanding of the situation.

When you look at all the posts we’re all actually agreeing mainly, but some of us are more aware of how we’ve got here whilst others, bizarrely, are still blaming parents and children. In the end though we’re all being let down for the same reasons. Pity we can’t work together to make things better.

The dislike and even hatred seeths through all threads like this. It's the underlying sentiment that one struggles to hide and words and explanations re enforce that once the debate unfolds and intelligent arguments are not heard or adequately countered on these discussions.

I agree ref the low level disruption. It helps no one. It must be managed. It isn't adequately managed.

And the corrections must be made to posters who seethe over the behaviour. The reality is it absolutely is based in need. Addressing need takes work and money so it's easier to just dislike them. People do generally dislike ND folks, particularly children from everything I see and experience. Some hide it, some don't.

I don't blame people for a natural feeling but let's stop dressing it up. That feeling is underlying posts for some, not so for others.

For me, the objectionable part is the inference that it's somehow the fault of the SEN child or their parents that a disruptive child remains in MS school. No matter how many times the facts are explained or the LA's loathsome tactics set out, there is clearly a subset of people who cannot accept that disruption is caused by anything except bad parenting, and simply want the child 'removed'. There is no dispute that disruption is bad and unwelcome for the majority, but if the SEN child is removed by the parents without the offer of a specialist place, that child will be lucky to get an education at all.

Equally, nobody appreciates the impossibility of funding a specialist education for all children who appear to need it in recent times, or the inevitable impact on the number of children and teachers expected to 'suck it up' in MS. Rather than collaboratively looking for solutions, there is just NIMBYing in relation to their own local schools. All of which perpetuates the impression that ND children are problematic and best avoided, and expresses an antipathy towards those children that would not be tolerated if expressed towards any other kind of disability.

Everything @Vinvertebrate just said 👏.

It's awful isn't it . Like it's open season to hate in the disabled these days. I'm seeing it more and more . Why are we going backwards as a society?

If someone is beating up your child in a daily basis and the school and the police at powerless to stop the situation you’ll get pretty sick of everyone telling you ‘oh but they’re neurodivergent’, ‘think of the terrible home life they have’ and other such excuses for a basic failure to safeguard the child.

There’s so much sympathy for the child being violent and zero sympathy for the child beat beaten every day when they have done nothing wrong.

m we moved to a private school in the end. It’s astounding how the education department just shrug their shoulders and stay there is nothing they can do. Astounding.

This is Scotland where inclusion has gone much further than England and exclusion has been banned. I note from
the TES that schools in England are thinking of following Scotland’s lead. Madness.