Constantly disruptive child in my daughter's class

[waitingforsainos]

DD is Y6 and this other child seems to be causing so much trouble in class every day, shouting at the teacher, slamming doors, flicking light switches on and off, randomly screaming in the middle of a lesson when they don't want to do the work, mouthing off if other kids get to do something different because they've behaved well. DD says it's every lesson.

On the whatsapp group, the child's mum has said it's not their fault, they've got an ehcp for semh (think that's mental health?) and has laughed at the teacher when she's been asked to go inside to talk at the end of the day.

From the parent chat, it sounds like the child has had a few suspensions but doesn't seem to have made any difference.

AIBU to expect more from school? What would happen in your child's school if someone behaved like that?

@Covertcollie I don't believe the ND child was beating your child up daily. So this is the perpetuation and exaggeration problem I'm calling out.

I know the school will downplay a situation they cannot manage and it's no surprise to hear a parent feeling they aren't being heard. They won't tell you everything.

I know it is best for your child to be in an environment that is predictable for their learning, where they feel safe. Watching another child meltdown in high distress from anxiety is very stressful to watch for adults and children.

School is really rubbish for most children. It's a nightmare of terror for ND kids.

It's ok if you feel no sympathy. You must protect your own.

I wonder how different it is in private school. I imagine so much better, smaller classes and resources for the ND kids that will be in there. I wonder if it's easier to push the ND kids out of Private school if enough paying parents say ' fuck this' in a more articulate way than that of course. I don't hold that against anyone.

It sounds like you have been lucky to get what you need for your child.

The thing is @Covertcollie, the school is objectively not "powerless" to stop the situation you describe, no matter how "inclusive" it is. There is a clear duty of care towards your child and the school needs to meet it by ensuring (at the very least) that opportunities to inflict violence are not available. (This is one reason why my own DS had a 1:1 in his early years - he was inclined to lash out if anyone was too loud, or too close). ND or trauma might be a reason for the behaviour, but it is not an excuse and certainly does not negate the school's responsibility to keep your child safe.

Sympathy for the children involved is not binary: I feel sorry for both sides in this scenario. Of course nobody should be beaten up at school. What is perhaps not obvious to those without ND children is the level of anxiety and discomfort the "violent" child (presumably autistic) will be experiencing if they are getting to that level of dysregulation every day.

Again, the obvious failings of the school and the education system seem to be being ignored here. Nobody is advocating for a SEN free-for-all in the classroom, but these situations arise precisely because there is no viable alternative for some SEN children and a grown-up conversation is needed about how we tackle this as a society.

I have no idea of the direction of travel from an inclusion perspective, but it would not surprise me if England went the same way as Scotland as you say, likely dressing up a decision based on financial viability as deliberate policy, just like they did when closing all the LA's SEN schools.

How come it’s ok for posters to say that they don’t believe someone is being beaten up daily by a ND child and that the person is exaggerating, but if someone dares say they don’t believe that every parent claiming SEN is genuine (or that some behaviour filed under SEN is just poor parenting/bad behaviour/lack of discipline), they’re piled on?

No need to answer, anyone. It’s rhetorical.

There are plenty of ND kids in my child’s private school. They are geeky, high performing, would previously be called Asperger’s children. My child is one of them. Like my child they are refugees from a state school system where they were often - just like my child - regularly physically assaulted and the senior leadership were helpless to do anything. They were also - like my child - distressed, anxious and overwhelmed by the regular random outbursts and general unruliness of other children. Class size is totally irrelevant. The difference between state and private is discipline and respect for the learning of other pupils. The state sector could follow suit if it wanted to by removing all children that attack and disrupt others but they are unwilling to do so.

It’s sad that not everyone can afford private schooling. It’s not an elite education, it’s just how all schools ought to be. A calm quiet place free from distractions.

So the head, the deputy head, the police link officer and the head of pupil support were not able to do anything. The police had charged the child with assault many times but this amounts to little more than a letter home to their guardian. The student politics that we have in Scotland protected the rights of the bully over my child as they were in care. So they couldn’t be removed from the school, they couldn’t be removed from the class, they got to sit where they liked in class (mainly right next to my child as it was fun to bully them) and the bully couldn’t be held back at the end of the day or held in at break.

The school could offer that I could move my child, or keep them in at break, to they could get out of school early to walk home in safety. Basically the offer was for my child to be isolated from their friends. It’s a joke.

If you bring your child up to be kind and respectful and keen to learn, no one will protect your child in situations like this. If you persistently deprive and mistreat your child, the state will bend over backwards.

You don't want an answer to your question because you know we will present information and arguments you cannot match in this debate. It's like putting your fingers in your ears and saying nah nah. So I understand the level at which I'm debating here and that is sad, for all of us.

So who is ' everyone '. I only know people like myself and friends or other parents online I engage with who have an excellent watertight diagnosis that followed a process you won't even understand. This isn't to be rude to you, it's because you don't understand this and are out your depth.

So we have a large proportion of children diagnosed adequately by professionals with intellect and experience far beyond the 'everyone is ND brigade'.

We all know on this thread that saying ones child is being beaten daily by another ND child, a female in particular, in class, is absolute nonsense. Are you telling me you believed that to be fact?

And please do respond.

Schools are not "powerless" they are just unwilling to use the powers that they have. The system is set up to reward schools for "inclusion" and punish those who remove disruptive pupils.

I went to a “nice” private school 40 years ago. With the best of intentions, the school took on a child who had caused problems elsewhere, because they thought they could help. My year group fell from 24 to 6 then 4 as a result ( I was one of the ones who left, went to look around the school for my dd and had a panic attack on crossing the threshold).

In Scotland they are powerless. They have no power to permanently exclude. One child was permanently excluded in the last academic year in a country of 5.5M. Troublesome kids know that the teachers are powerless and are running amok.

I'm not au fait with targets and Ofsted demands atm regards exclusion.

I understand and see that schools don't seem to exclude pupils. Exclusion is not appropriate for needs based behaviour, particularly where there are now NO alternative provisions. It suits a narrative to say x equals good and y equals bad. Bad must be expelled. It is incredibly short sighted. There's nowhere to go. And expelled pupils, if it were that way, it's a given they'll disproportionately be ND.

Schools are able to do significantly more than they let on. I notice when I come in and articulate the right way and highlight things, they do what they always should have done. That's to address need.

The problem though, is that I can shout and articulate well. Many can't, or have zero resource to. I then pull resources from them in that environment.

If you bring your child up to be kind and respectful and keen to learn, no one will protect your child in situations like this. If you persistently deprive and mistreat your child, the state will bend over backwards.

You seem to be conflating looked-after children and those with SEN. I can only comment on the latter, but I promise that most SEN parents I have met want their child to be kind, respectful and keen to learn too. The state does not “bend over backwards” for autistic children who need an alternative learning environment to MS - quite the opposite, in fact.

I actually agree that all kids need consequence. That needs to be in tandem with supporting need.

It feels pretty futile that we have both no suitable support being given AND no exclusion ever. For bullying for example, NOT needs such as meltdowns caused by the anxiety of trying to function in mainstream. But bullying, that's a big problem and I believe that problem isn't being addressed and there's little protection if this is occurring.

I agree it's just a mess.

Yes, this.

And actually, would you want the state to ignore children who have had neglectful and abusive childhoods? The original quote seems to suggest that state support is wrong in these cases? Which is wrong and upsetting on so many levels.

Yes I was talking about looked after children or children who are disruptive due to trauma in their home lives specifically. These children are also disruptive, and also need to be removed from the mainstream classroom as they are disrupting the learning of other children and their violent outbursts are damaging the mental health of all.

It may sound harsh but I cannot can’t see any other options. It’s unacceptable for children to be exposed to violence. It’s unacceptable for children to have their education disrupted by others. Disruptive and / or violent children shouldn’t be in mainstream classrooms or school playgrounds at break time.

if someone dares say they don’t believe that every parent claiming SEN is genuine (or that some behaviour filed under SEN is just poor parenting/bad behaviour/lack of discipline), they’re piled on?

No pile-on here, but it’s probably because (contrary to popular belief) diagnoses are hard won and require extensive supporting evidence across multiple disciplines. Those professionals are actually qualified to determine the existence of SEN or AN. The average MN’er is categorically not so qualified. As any SEN parent will tell you, these are likely the same parents who patiently explain to us what consequences and discipline are, as though they alone have the secret of parenting, and these are things that have never occurred to us. 🙄

Not ignore them but educate them totally separately from others who can control their emotions and outbursts and are keen to learn. Not separating them is damaging the education and mental health of the majority and it cannot go on.

How patronising can you be? Is that a natural character flaw of yours or do you work on it especially for posting online?

You genuinely come across as someone who would take any opportunity to gaslight someone. “I’m not being rude but you’re clearly out of your depth, hun. Why don’t you stop, it’s not your fault, don’t worry”.

You have no idea who I am, my job, experience, qualification or anything else, so spare me that bullshit.

You have clearly surrounded yourself with people like you who have that “watertight” diagnosis, so you pretend that you and your band of pals are representative of everyone. You’re not.

Are the people on MN who speak about their relative or friend desperately seeking diagnosis while doing zero parenting also lying? What about the ones about private school parents pushing for it to start the process of getting their kid extra time at exams?

Are they all liars too?

No idea who you think you are to rubbish what someone says when you have no insight into their issue. Arrogance is unreal.

Your predicted reply will have a reference to how you’re so much more experienced, so much more informed and that I should pay attention to learn something.

I was referring more to the undiagnosed ones with parents shouting to anyone who’ll listen about how they’re certain their child has xyz condition. Those people do exist and generally any poster who suggests this being a problem is shot down.

If there was a violent colleague in the workplace I had to go into every day I’d be terrified too. We are traumatising our children by refusing to address this.

Agree with this

I can't help but notice that your child hasn't even started school and yet you know all the answers.

Maybe come back when they are 16.

You’re right. That’s the only person I have contact with, so I can only really apply myself to Bluey episode listings and what wellies are best for jumping off a wall at the park. Excellent logic.

But this is the fault of the government and LA, that’s put teachers and other children in this position.
Not the fault of the child or even their parents.

Yes, being patronising is really a character flaw that I do display at times to be fair. It isn't the best way to present a point of view of course.

I am incredibly familiar with gaslighting in every guise, unfortunately for me. My posts are simply patronising to you and presenting an argument you're struggling to logically respond to. That's not gaslighting, and you are aware of that. I prefer not to use phrases such as ' hun', that's your construct of what I am doing.

If I am gaslighting for saying it is beyond logical reason to believe an NT female pupil is being physical beaten up daily in the classroom by an ND pupil? It's just not an accurate reflection of reality. I'll call that out.

If it suits to be called a gaslighter by yourself, and to be constructed in your mind as someone who calls people ' hun'. Well I'm not going to progress too far here.

This debate is incredibly helpful to have though. For all of us.

Everyone here is actually upset about the same thing. Some of us are trying to present something more logical to explain and encourage consideration.

Your job credentials mean nothing to me. I don't need to know them because your words tell me you don't understand it.

No, being patronising is definitely not the best approach.

So, in your opinion, why is it so illogical that someone is being beaten up so frequently?

I'm sorry for asking this but did your child ever attempt to defend themselves?