Constantly disruptive child in my daughter's class

[waitingforsainos]

DD is Y6 and this other child seems to be causing so much trouble in class every day, shouting at the teacher, slamming doors, flicking light switches on and off, randomly screaming in the middle of a lesson when they don't want to do the work, mouthing off if other kids get to do something different because they've behaved well. DD says it's every lesson.

On the whatsapp group, the child's mum has said it's not their fault, they've got an ehcp for semh (think that's mental health?) and has laughed at the teacher when she's been asked to go inside to talk at the end of the day.

From the parent chat, it sounds like the child has had a few suspensions but doesn't seem to have made any difference.

AIBU to expect more from school? What would happen in your child's school if someone behaved like that?

SEN issues are not mutually exclusive from parenting issues. But somehow we aren't allowed to say this.
Same way we are not allowed to say SEN kids DO bully.
We should be able to speak about this.

Not allowed by whom? Of course some SEN children have shit parents and bully others. Your post sounds a bit like the old “and we’re not even allowed to celebrate Christmas anymore” Daily Mail headline to me. I just don’t recognize what you are describing. 🤷🏻‍♀️

It's not whatabouttery. Please don't be so offensive.

My son was getting the shit kicked out of him.

First we got 'but SEN'. We pointed out DS has SEN needs too and the combination of the two kids was problematic. Then we got 'but your child hit back'. Yeah cos this was the X number of incidents where you did fuck all to stop the other kid despite DS being told to speak to a teacher when the other kid was escalating. DS literally had to stand there and take punches in front of a teacher and we went nuts about safeguarding.

The parents had been refusing to admit the child had SEN issues and had behaviour issues. But because they are middle class they fought tooth and nail to keep him in school cos they were effectively playing the system.

It took us to play the same game and threaten to go over the head before the child was eventually forceably referred to third party services due to their behaviour.

It was happening constantly to multiple kids. We were just the one who had enough and refused to 'be nice' about it anymore. Genuinely we thought this kid was likely to bring a knife into school with some of the stuff he was saying.

This child is still in school and problems are ongoing. But lo and behold he stays away from DS and his friends now. Magically despite his SEN needs (which yes I do believe he has), he can regulate and understand enough not to do it to certain kids.

But the school hid for so long behind this bullshit, I no longer trust the system nor all the weasely excuses we've heard too many times.

I have eyes and I can see the difference between parents who supervise and help their kids and parents who dump and run, and deny all responsibility. The idea that parents who complain like me are ignorant (hey why don't we just go down the whole bigoted path with this one too) is just a cop out.

Being SEN means parents have to step up more. Plenty do. But equally plenty don't and if we can't acknowledge that we are all fucked. And it doesn't help SEN kids across the board - both the violent and non violent ones. Both the ones who are victims and are bullies.

There's a whole bloody rainbow of experiences out there. The bloody labels are often a bloody red herring tbh. They act as shields to actually solving fucking huge problems

I'm not prepared to go along with these sweeping generalisations over labels anymore. I am focusing on behaviours.

If behaviour is anti social and is actively harming then it's not good enough. It doesn't matter whether a child has a label or not. Legally children have a right to be safe. ALL children. All kids are equal in the classroom in this. If a SEN kid is getting bullied that's not ok.

But simply no more chairs being thrown. No more kids being hurt. I've stepped in both in the classroom when I've been in helping and at out of school parties with this child before. (Funny how knowing your child has these issues, the closest parent to the child isn't the parent - there's three other parents fed up of little Rexs hitting their kid between child and mum...)

Sigh.

So yeah. I'm at that point now.

I judge each situation as it comes. It should not be normalised or excused by anyone.

I'm sorry you haven't had to deal with it.

Lucky you.

So who's removing the violent child?
And where are they being removed to?

@RedToothBrush first, I am sorry that you found my 'whataboutery' comment offensive. I was confused as to why you had quoted my post before referring to your own DC's (awful) situation. I thought you had inferred that I was advocating for some kind of SEN free-for-all in MS. (FAOD I'm not!)

FWIW I would probably have done the same as you if my DS was in that situation. There is no merit in insisting that a child who can't cope in MS should stay there when it's plainly unsuitable for them and a nightmare for the other kids. Hopefully that's not in dispute.

My experience in MS was the opposite. Whenever there was a whiff of dysregulation, DS was whipped away from the other children. He spent months being taught alone in a broom cupboard with no windows, and was only allowed to join the class for lessons that they knew he would cope with. I was heartbroken that he was in that environment, but I did not challenge it because I understand the need to protect the majority (although I think I am still allowed to wish that my DS' options at the time were better, and more swiftly available).

The point is that simply saying "no more" is understandable but solves nothing, for either group of children. The SEN children who can't cope in MS need somewhere to go, the SEN children who can cope in MS with support need that support, and all of the other children need to feel and be safe in school. None of that is happening, and it is reasonable to question whether it is a realistic goal in view of the sheer numbers of children with difficulties of this nature. While we all figure it out, there is a pretty toxic environment (on and off-MN) for the parents of SEN children, who are (undeservedly, in most cases) copping a lot of the blame for this parlous situation.

Yep he shouldn't be there should he the boy with a determination to target another. It's so wrong and if mine is on the receiving end I'd want to throttle too.

My ND son is being manipulated by a horrendous boy. I'm trying to discern if he is ND or an NT boy. It appears he is NT.

It's not really working all this. I think everyone is a victim here.

I feel strongly mainstream is not the right place. But it's going to cost.

@RedToothBrush the situation you describe is horrible.

You highlight something very true.

Schools lie, they hide information, they don't know their arse from their elbow. And everyone suffers.

A kid having a meltdown who is Autistic - that id STRESS, that is ANXIETY.

A kid strategically and systematically targeting someone and being an arsehole - I agree that ND or NT that's not ok. Loads of kids are capable of being so horrible in this latter sense. THAT is NOT an ND thing. That's being a shite - there may be understandable reasons why, there usually are aren't there.

The school system is in meltdown from my point of view for all of us.

See that's wrong too. And the disparity between approach in schools is not ok.

It's really poor.

It actively harms all

One of the bigger problems is that if you have a SEN kid who is coping academically but having meltdowns, there seems to be no provision at all. Because the focus is all about academics. Behaviour seems to be this massive irrelevancy.

I dunno.

Unfortunately I do think that unless parents who have been on the recieving end kick off about their own children's rights then nothing will change.

Schools have to balance the needs of all kids. They aren't doing that if poor behaviour is being swept under the carpet 'because inclusion'. And unfortunately that seems to be where the focus is in all the language. This can't get lost that there remains a duty of care.

That doesn't mean that SEN kids shouldnt have an education, but honestly the safety of kids has to come first and it's actually scary if that's not happening.

We do need to fight back against the normalisation of violence because otherwise kids have the lowest bar imaginable about what they think is acceptable.

That has terrifying consequences.

So stuff like being able to exclude a child causing others harm constantly without having to jump through a million hoops first? Yeah I'd agree with that

I get it's anxiety. But if your anxiety is placing another child at risk then we need to recognise that risk.

Risk management has to come first.

You then look at education to fit that. Yes that expensive but I really don't believe it's the cost that the most prohibitive thing here. It's a lack of political will.

I get frustrated at people not understanding the difference. It's the same thing that's lead to mass scandals in maternity hospitals. Yet when you look at the costs to society and indirect costs of malpractice, it would cost less to provide adequate care. Instead women don't complain (for many reasons) but one significant one is because they don't want to shit on the junior staff.

It's fucked up. We need to get out of this mentality of 'being nice' at the expense of ourselves because it means a problem never gets fixed and politicians dont take it seriously. It just gets marked as 'not a priority' because not enough people kick off about it.

And it's another of these issues which if it's not addressed it will get a whole lot worse because there will be a massive backlash.

It's right that everyone of us gets angry. Getting angry is actually good. Parents in my situation SHOULD speak up and say 'this is not ok' rather than being rabidly attacked for not being sympathetic enough or not supporting SEN kids. It's bollocks.

Plus there is this weird problem that I literally can't do anything on behalf of another child in terms of arguing a point as far as the system is concerned. You can only report what is relevant to YOUR child (something we came across whilst deal with this utter mess). You have to focus it on YOUR child's needs and right and frame it like that rather than refering to anyone else's kid. So from that pov it really does make it a situation where you have to focus on that and not give a shit about the impact.

The whole thing blows.

Couldn't agree more.

All this 'its anxiety' stuff misses one really relevant point.

How does a 7 year old kid tell the difference between a child who has anxiety and one who is just a shit, if the outcome in both scenarios is they are getting punched?

How do you rationalise that?

The kid lacks the capacity to understand. And frankly it's irrelevant anyway. That kid still has bruises and still become scared of school and that child regardless of the intent of the child that hurt them.

It gives the victim their own issues with anxiety.

What every kid in that class learns in terms of what acceptable matters - thats the SEN kid, any kid they hurt AND the casual third party observers too. Because it's such a key part in life.

Even if it is anxiety it still normalises violence and gives manipulative adults the excuse later in life to beat someone up and say 'oh it was just anxiety' as a get out of jail free card.

Unfortunately when it comes down to it, if you hit someone when you are 18 it doesn't matter what your additional needs are. The police are still going to arrest you for it, if someone does decide to make a complaint. Not forgetting that people get killed and suffer life changing injuries from single punches. Anxiety as a justification and a defence just doesn't cut it.

We can't just pretend it's ok merely because it's an anxiety response. It has to still be dealt with as unacceptable and with consequences no matter what the scenario.

Can we please stop it and recognise risk as risk to a child.

But aren’t we all agreeing that this shouldn’t be happening?

None of this should be.

This is happening because of cuts and refusing to address it all.

Pinning the blame on children, parents, or teachers is pointless. The problem is that the government has taken away valuable ss spaces, sure start centres, TAs, PRUs, obstruct children from getting the support they need, prop up a system that is creating more SN children who cannot cope, which is making the problem even bigger. They’ve taken away a teacher’s ability to remove a violent child from the classroom to the detriment of everyone else in the room.

This is putting all our children at risk.

There are other ways this could all be dealt with, but everyone insists on it all being done in the exact same way that exacerbated the issue in the first place. It’s utter bonkers.

Yes definitely that, that’s a huge problem for teachers and children.

Also things like attendance, an autistic child with anxiety should have a more lenient approach to attendance, ditto children with physical health issues.

Definitely Number 2. Because special needs or not, there is no way in hell I'd let my child behave like the way the boy in OP's post is. Sounds a right spoilt little sproglet

@RedToothBrush

The two can exist in tandem. The FACT that meltdowns are based in STRESS and ANXIETY and not about a kid wishing to deliberately hurt people. And we can accept, this is difficult and stressful for other children to experience if it's continual and highly disruptive. We are as intelligent people able to accept both FACTS.

A child if they are being battered ( I sincerely doubt this is happening daily or school would be ripped a new arsehole), anyway,any child being battered by an ND pupil ( they are not), they would have safeguarding all over this.

What instead is happening is meltdowns which can be scary and disruptive. If a child meltdowns so much ( from STRESS and ANXIETY in that environment) that can be dangerous if bad enough. That can hurt others. It could involve shouting, crying and at worst I know one young lad would flip tables over.

That is not ok for anyone. In mainstream where they are forced to be now to save money, stress and anxiety will increase for these ND kids.

It is not the job of a child to understand and forgive meltdowns. Most kids will instinctively reject, isolate and keep away from a child doing that who is Autistic. I suggest people research the data now showing that children do instinctively reject Autistic children. They know they are different in their gut. Kids are amazing in their intuition. This fact is hard to accept as a mum to an ND child. But I accept it.

My posts demonstrate I live in reality.

The reality is - we can't euthanise them. We have them excluded out of school then, mum's lose working ability and tax contribution potential and claim benefits.

Yes I believe strongly risks of getting involved in crime will result in this population. I'm not being cruel, it's realistic. And this is all your problem.

Stop this nonsense thinking it is not your problem. It will be.

I'd happily see investment in this area for YOUR NT kids benefit, for my ND child and all the others and for the mums who want to contribute and not suck your tax money because they have NO choice in the end. For the benefit of teachers probably close to leaving the profession. For everyone.

Rant over 😆🙏.

If the behaviour's in school though, what's the relevance of what a parent would "allow"? They're not there?

Because most of them are not special needs and dont need special schools...theyre just dragged up

There are a lot of kids like that in my kids primry school, and most of them come from quite scummy families so the apple doesnt fall far from the tree. Theres this one boy in my second DD's class who is a mouthy gobby bully who is shouting and swearing at everyone. One time he got excluded for getting in a fight with another kid and when bully's mum arrived in school, she was giving the teachers a proper mouthful and all and demanding she saw the parents of the boy her son got in a fight with. It was quite disgusting as this played out while i was waiting to pick my youngest up, hearing the mum shouting to another (I think it was the other boys mum but couldve been anyone) "I know where you fucking live, and my fella yeah? He's gonna fucking batter you up"

I don’t think you understand how meltdowns work.

A NT mentally healthy child is not violent, as well as hopefully learning from their parents, they also learn through nursery, early years at school. IME knowing many tricky children they are all ND or have a horrific background.

My son was incredibly violent towards me from the age of 6 - 12. He was only violent during meltdown and had no memory of it happening. He was not spoilt, I did not allow it, it was just the way his meltdowns manifested. (My daughter’s meltdowns present as suicidal ideation, my youngest child’s rare meltdowns are very easy to manage as he cries - not pleasant for him, but far easier for me, selfishly!). In those violent moments, or after when he had no memory of it happening, punishing it would have been as useful as punishing a child for having a seizure or an asthma attack.

As a family we worked very hard to help reduce the meltdowns. He didn’t have them in school at all, so was no danger to anyone else. All but one of his teachers over those years did nothing to help him, and plenty to make things worse. In fact the things they did would have taken more effort than to just pretend he wasn’t there, which ironically was something he would have thrived with.

Because of the actions of certain teachers I was beaten most days. Until I broke and removed him from school, and he wasn’t ever violent again.

School has become a toxic wasteland, and it’s getting worse. And yet again instead of parents or teachers trying to band together to try to make changes and improvements, we just get the same old fucking bullshit about “well if he was my child I wouldn’t allow it”. Well bloody good for you. Let’s hope if you have an autistic child you get an inspirational “good” one 🙄

No one in this thread is saying to leave violent children be. We’re all saying that things need to be done, but we have a fucking awful government following years of fucking awful government, none of them give one shiny shit about violent children in classrooms or the children and teachers who are bearing the brunt of that. Those of us coming from a SN parent point of view are routinely accused of being shit, the lowest of the low, and our children are basically the spawn of satan.

It’s a fucking shit show, but we all want the same thing.

One thing I don’t want anymore though is this insidious slide into ablism that has got worse over the last few years.

Im not talking about meltdowns. The behaviour in OP's post isnt meltdown, its pure disrespect and disruption

A child behaving like that in a classroom will be classed as having SN whether you like it or not.

No matter what your views are they are a child that needs more support, and should be in a classroom where teachers have the ability to remove him for the safety of everyone.

@Wishyouwerehere50 i really appreciate your posts!

So being naughty/badly behaved is now SN.
And people wonder why REAL SN families struggle to be taken seriously

If a kid is really acting out demonstrably in ways different to peers, they will have SN yes.

Nearly always it's Autism or ADHD undiagnosed or diagnosed.

There may be other issues environmentallywhich are not disabilities based like being ND but they tend to calm or go away with intervention to address that ( if possible with resources and if school cares). BeingND and those struggles never go away. That's how you tell the difference.

Some kids are nasty and just bullies. In my child's school, the worst ones are the NT children. They will spot, attack and manipulate with absolute cruelty the children they instinctively spot are odd or have struggles with social awareness. If those NT kids are so diabolical in their behaviour that they do this you might think what is their need? So in our case, the NT boy doing that to my ND child, his mum it appears is a very low income drug dependant. So that NT kid is horrid, but there's some need there. If helping that kid helps my child I'm all for that.

No one here is presenting any reasonable or sensible argument in any way apart from those who are parents of ND kids. 🤦

Hoping they just die is all I can sense here from posters.

I'm waiting for logical intelligent debate beyond us few with a functioning brain; and it's just not coming is it.

I agree and those costs plus increasing numbers of kids is unsustainable. I think that the Government will have to somehow slash the cost in order to provide more specialist places, probably cutting the number of staff/increasing class sizes would be a place to start.