bum pinching in night clubs!

[ventandrant]

I am a parent to 2 teens one being almost 19 and she has just started going out, she goes to pubs in the town centre and quite likes the pub culture but what she hates is men/boys constantly looking at her. Last weekend her and her friends went clubbing after the pub and her friend got her bum pinched, her friends parents are now in talks with the club as her friend thinks she was sexually assaulted, because it wasn't consensual and he didn't ask first they think this is sexual assault.

My DD said in the club its constantly boys trying to touch girls up but they don't ask first so it is assault. When I was young and used to go clubbing that is how it was - you may get touched and then you would have a snog on the dance floor sometimes it would lead to exchanging numbers but other times it would lead to absolutely nothing and sometimes I would end up snogging 3 men in one night!!

They say they will never go clubbing again as they are scarred for life but two of them especially seem of frightened of boys even talking to them because of this culture of "consent", their other friend is the opposite she flirts constantly and has had lots of one night stands and several relationships with boys from about 14 onwards but none of the other three have.

Opinions please. Is this assault? I want to try and give her a balanced view of life and relationships but she thinks all boys are bad because all you hear about is "assault" and "consent".

My DD said in the club its constantly boys trying to touch girls up but they don't ask first so it is assault
Yes it's assault. I don't blame them for not going back. You seem to think they should be fine with it?

The fact you put "consent" in quote marks, tells me all I need to know about your thoughts on this matter OP.

Yeah “consent” is pretty important 🙄

Of course it's assault.

When I was just short of my 60th birthday, I had my bum pinched whilst I was jammed in on the escalator from Waverley Station, Edinburgh. The culprits appeared to be a couple of businessmen about my age.

The most that I could do was to express my outrage. Maybe they did it as a "joke". Bluntly, I don't care.

The circumstances don't matter. I recall having that kind of thing happen a lot on the Paris Metro when I was a student. It's all wrong.

Yes it's sexual assault but yes nightclubs have always been like this. Put lots of drunk/drugged horny 18-25 year olds in a dark, noisy, hot environment and this sort of thing will happen - people will get touched, sometimes intentionally and sometimes not. I've not been in one for 20 years but in the late 90's/early 2000s they were always like this. At least the ones that had more than five people in.

Nightclubs, festivals and pubs generally when they are packed are incompatible with modern attitudes to uninvited physical contact. That's one of the main reasons young people don't attend them anymore and why they're gradually dying out.

I don’t go places where men paw me. I think your daughter is normal.

Just because it happened to you and no one cared doesn't make it ok.

Women should be able to go out without needing to accept unwanted touching. It's that simple.

Absolutely assault. Plenty of ways to enjoy yourself in a club without pinching a strangers bum, and those who don't know that need to be banned. Good on them for speaking up! Most women have your mindset and assume it's fine/just something guys do and don't want to rock the boat. The ones who will make significant changes are the ones who speak up, and hopefully eventually unwanted sexual advances won't have a place in clubs/bars anymore!

Of course it's assault.

Your use of "consent" says a lot about your way of thinking on the matter though!

It is assault and just because we all put up with it and no one stuck up for us doesn't mean its ok. If women could report this assault to bouncers who would remove the culprit if it happens again then that would massively discourage the bellends for thinking it was appropriate behaviour.

My DD is also 19 and started going to clubs when she was 18 and this is a constant problem. Guys thinking they have touching rights because they are on a dancefloor. My DD says that many of them are lecherous, looking them up and down, saying crude comments and she has had her bum grabbed and fondled without her consent on more than once occasion. But I had the same shit happen to me when I was her age and its hideous that this bullshit is still going on.

Last time it happened to my DD I said why didn't you say something to him or go and tell one of the bouncers and get him thrown out and she said she did nothing because of the potential repercussions. That this guy could wait for her outside when she came out.

There is a difference between flirting with a guy in a club that you like, he dances with you and touches you and you end up kissing. It is your choice to do that. But when someone puts their hands on you in that way that you have not asked for then yes its assault. If its non consensual and you don't want it then its assault!

I have also had the talk with DD that not all guys do this and she knows this. Some of the guys she has met at uni have been respectful and not dickheads but her view of guys in general right now is pretty negative.

It IS sexual assault and no way should they be ok with it and I understand why they don't want to go anywhere it might happen.
Unfortunately it happened to me when I was a teen virtually every time I went out to a club when I was much younger (and worse).

Wow OP.

Wow.

How about teaching your DD bodily autonomy and that she has the right to not be fucking touched?! That should have been started 15 years ago tbh.

They used to send kids up chimneys. Do you think they should still do that, too?

because of this culture of "consent"

Bloody consent, ruining everyone's fun.

If someone has pinched her bum without her consent then YES it’s assault. Things have moved on (thank God!) from the days when as a woman in a pub or club we’d just have to accept that this was something that might happen because “boys will be boys”.

I don't think the night club culture is for her - there are a couple of friends who love it as they love the attention but she is very wary of boys and men which is a good thing but is definitely stopping her having a relationship as she seems to think all boys/men are bad and only after one thing. She has no male friends as she thinks that boys are only after girls for sex but I need to try and tell her that not all boys are like this and this bum pinching consent thing as made her hate men even more.

I have had a conversation with her about this and I think it probably goes back to when she was in year 10 and on the school bus and in there was boy who often sat next to her who I think obviously fancied her and they became quite friendly but he then touched her knee and she then wouldn't go on the bus for weeks. This was 4 years ago and it has obviously stayed with her. She hates boys looking at her in pubs on trains etc and it makes her feel uncomfortable and she feels that they should ask first. I noticed a few months ago that when she goes out she doesn't wear make up any more and she told me this is so boys don't look at her

I think this happened a lot if the past and was accepted as most of us felt we didn't have a choice about it. It made me feel extremely uncomfortable and is different to choosing to dance and then snog someone.

Just because it was common practice doesn't make it ok. It's the same attitude that stopped me feeling like I could complain when I was sexually harassed in the workplace. 'It's only banter, it doesn't mean anything, that's just how older men talk to young women at work!'

I love that the younger generation will not tolerate this. They are quite right and I admire them for it. You should be proud of her.

Does she have strong male role models in her life? My DD has an amazing Dad who is respectful of women and a good guy. And also uncles, cousins and Grandfathers who are the same. This has helped her to see that not all men are lecherous scumbags and there are some good ones out there.

Of course this is sexual assault OP. I hope to god you reassure her of this and tell her to report any of this activity immediately to the club bouncers, who should immediately boot out the perpetrators and inform police if that is her wish.

This feels like quite an extreme reaction @ventandrant

Are you someone who enjoys attention from men?
I have to say that I am slightly confused how relationships start these days given how cautious both parties need to be that they are acting appropriately and the risks of being cancelled by a friendship group if they get it wrong but how freeing it must be to know that, if someone touches you without your consent - whether that's the boy you've fancied for ages, your 50 something boss or a random bloke in the supermarket - you can call them out & be supported. When I think back on all of the times I had my bum pinched or stroked or my boobs or legs fondled or my bra strap twanged or my skirt flicked up then, whether it was done as a joke or lecherously, I always felt degraded and annoyed. It was never welcomed. Yet the most I could do was to turn around and ask them (with a polite smile of course) to stop and hope that they did.
Your daughter doesn't have a problem with men. She might need some guidance on how to navigate the early stages of a relationship but it should never be suggested to her that having boundaries around how men treat you is a problem that she has.

This happened to me and my friends a few times in the late 90s / early 2000s. It was assault then and to be honest I am quite shocked it still happens. I thought the world might have been slightly better for young women nowadays. Sad to see it is not.

But good on the young women for having better awareness than I did and for having the guts to stand up for themselves!

I have to say that I am slightly confused how relationships start these days given how cautious both parties need to be that they are acting appropriately

Really? None of my relationships have ever started with inappropriate behaviour that wouldn't be seen as acceptable these days.

I am so sorry for your daughter. Not because she has been put off going to nightclubs, but because her parent is effectively telling her that her body exists for the benefit of random men.

I've been going out for nearly 20 years and it is nowhere near as bad as it used to be, but it definitely still happens. Women are more likely to report it now and there's less dealing with it there in the moment (e.g. by slapping the guy, telling him where to go, etc.) - that's another change.