bum pinching in night clubs!

[ventandrant]

I am a parent to 2 teens one being almost 19 and she has just started going out, she goes to pubs in the town centre and quite likes the pub culture but what she hates is men/boys constantly looking at her. Last weekend her and her friends went clubbing after the pub and her friend got her bum pinched, her friends parents are now in talks with the club as her friend thinks she was sexually assaulted, because it wasn't consensual and he didn't ask first they think this is sexual assault.

My DD said in the club its constantly boys trying to touch girls up but they don't ask first so it is assault. When I was young and used to go clubbing that is how it was - you may get touched and then you would have a snog on the dance floor sometimes it would lead to exchanging numbers but other times it would lead to absolutely nothing and sometimes I would end up snogging 3 men in one night!!

They say they will never go clubbing again as they are scarred for life but two of them especially seem of frightened of boys even talking to them because of this culture of "consent", their other friend is the opposite she flirts constantly and has had lots of one night stands and several relationships with boys from about 14 onwards but none of the other three have.

Opinions please. Is this assault? I want to try and give her a balanced view of life and relationships but she thinks all boys are bad because all you hear about is "assault" and "consent".

You are very wrong. It is legally sexual assault. This is not a matter of opinion it is a matter of fact.

Your exact attitude of victim blaming is why we have such a rape culture in the first place. If she didn’t dress that way it wouldn’t happen, if she didn’t go this place it wouldn’t happen. Bullshit. Men take what isn’t there’s and touch because they know it will be excused, regardless of how it makes the woman in the other end feel.

Being a bank doesn’t mean it’s fine for people to take steal the odd tenner here and there, nor rob the bank entirely. But by your logic, If they didn’t want people to steal they shouldn’t have had money in the first place/advertised the amount or placed their bank in certain neighbourhoods etc.

You are disgusting. I hope your daughter distances herself from you and your horrible so-called opinions ie internalised misogyny.

Are you insane? Snogging in a club due to mutual attraction and flirting - fine. Pinching the arse of a girl you haven’t even talked to on a dance floor - that is assault.

I grew up in the days of getting groped in clubs and at gigs. It was grim and none of us liked it. We did like meeting guys and dancing with them and having a snog and indeed going back to theirs for a shag. But not ever with someone who had randomly groped us without consent. Christ.

Exactly! Who the hell thinks a hand on the shoulder after flirty eye contact throughout the night is the same as having your arse pinched by some random? Frankly, if a man is too stupid to know the difference he’s a fucking danger.

I remember this and it was absolutely grim. Teenage boy behaviour. I didn't realise it then, but it was often because their fathers were similar with their mothers. Basically the apple doesn't fall far from the tree

Aside from the consent element of the conversation which everyone has covered well, I think some of your daughters views and reactions sound extreme and this is what's actually concerning you.

Is it possible she's been sexually abused? Her reaction to the boy at school resting his hand on her knee jumps out, and makes me think more than that happened or something happened previously to provoke such a panicked response from her.

I understand what you’re saying op, but we do live in a very different world and women no longer have to put up with being inappropriately touched or groped. I think a big difference between our youths and now is that we were so used to it we could handle it, as in we could confidently tell guys to fuck off or laugh it off back then. But now girls are taught they shouldn’t have to do that because it shouldn’t be happening to them in the first place, but nothing to help them deal with it if it dose.

I see what’s happened with your dd happening to mine, they are growing up very differently to me, I was out clubbing by 14yo, but I had brothers, older cousins and a gob on me to protect me. My DDs are definitely very sheltered and I know I have to find a way of teaching them how to deal with difficult situations without them being scared of them if something they don’t like happens. I’d love for them to do martial arts or boxing, to give them confidence but none have been interested.

It is very sad that this one club is putting your dd and her friends off having nights out clubbing, in my experience of clubbing all over the world, most places are not like this. There are places that have reputations for being sleezy but also places that can be great fun and the men aren’t sleezes.

I think all you can do is talk to her, hope uni will widen her social circle. Maybe give her some one liners she can use with confidence if she feels lines are being crossed.

OP no one has a right to touch your body without your consent. Touching you sexually without your consent is sexual assault.

I'm sorry to hear that you've gone through life thinking that your body was a free for all. Many women have been let down with sexist messaging.

Your daughters are right and it's an issue of consent. Just be grateful that someone has taught them.

I think its good this sort of behaviour is being gradually phased out.I was at a "Good" mixed school in the 70s and there was a lot of bra pinging, calling girls names ,and one boy got hold of a sanitary towel which had fallen out of my bag and walked around with it stuck to his head .I was mortified . Recently on here someone said her DD had been shown porn on the School Bus! It needs stamping on.We are able to be heard now . Some girls may want attention but many dont .I am late 50s and was stared at on a train by a couple of guys .In a pub a random bloke said hello to me .I am married with DC!

Even back in the old days we've didn't enjoy it. You ran the gauntlet everything you went out. By my early 20s, if I was quick enough, I could grab their fingers and twist them. It was definitely assault. The worst was at festivals, down the front.

It would seem the parents of the young men these days have failed spectacularly to raise decent sons. Many of them seem to be lazy bone idle entitled sexual predators. What has gone wrong ?

Hi @ventandrant

Ive read your last post and thought you’d get a pile on some responses are just plain mean and unnecessary I hope you are ok.

If you came here for advice and to learn and understand then I think your view is outdated and that you may benefit from reading “why women are to blame for everything”. By Jessica Taylor it’s heavy there’s a lot of Rape in it but it does cover consent and victim blaming extensively.

I am a man the modern world for these teenagers is so different to the place we grew up some is so much better than we had it some I would argue is worse.

The people that are around you are very similar to the people that are around me I can absolutely relate to your post. I would imagine it’s even the same area. work in a totally different environment hence why I am ahead of the game so to speak (I am not a teacher)

Navigating through theses changing times is challenging for women and men and it is men that need to get onboard quicker as it is they that have shattered your daughters respect for them.

Take care x

Yes, you’ve described assault OP. I am glad my skin was a bit thicker but I admire your DD regarding her stance on clubs. I never loved them either and was glad to grow out of that stage.

But in the culture of my home country, men, women, boys and girls are forever touching one gently on the arm, shoulder, back, knee or whatever. For emphasis, as a quick gesture of affection, a light corrective, etc. So I found your DD’s distaste for a touch on the knee from a boy she liked hard to understand.

Does she find touches from women and children equally distasteful? I think there are people who simply don’t like to be touched. It is difficult but not impossible for them to develop romantic relationships. Your DD may need to find her own path but it can be done

MN just seems to hate men in general and I want my DD to learn not all men are like this and she goes through life - at work, at uni etc she is going to encounter men and there are some good ones she can't just not go somewhere in case a man looks at her!!! She turned down a house party tonight as she said there will be boys and men there and she doesn't want to be around them. She didn't go out much before last weekends incident and that has spoiled going out for her even more now. She just sits in and watches TV which is fine as she is happy and safe but I don't think there is anything wrong with me wanting my almost 19 yr old to go out and have fun. She will never go clubbing again but now that is no parties, no going anywhere on public transport - she says she is happy just being at home where there are no men ready to pounce but I want her to spread her wings and enjoy her teenage years and we live in a world of men and women and it going to be very very difficult for her to never encounter men in her life.

She currently works in a ladies fashion store and all her colleagues are female but she does have male customers occasionally and most of the time they are buying underwear or sexy tops for their wives or girlfriends so literally every example of a man she has had or come across is not good apart from our few male family members.

I worry for her at uni because she will encounter boys at some point and she needs to give them a chance. Her friends and cousins who have boyfriends love the male attention but she is convinced all men just want to get you into bed.

@ventandrant She's a grown woman OP and if she wants to avoid men, that's her prerogative.

You have changed your position from your first thread which was about your daughter not wanting to be sexually assaulted and you being puzzled by that.

Now she wants to live in a totally female bubble and is terrified of all men.

It is sexual assault and can result in sex offenders registration
so your daughter is correct, this is not ok

Not wanting to be sexually harassed or assaulted doesn't equate to hating men.

Your whole attitude is that she will be lonely without a man, she should put up with being assaulted because its normal, that it's a compliment when you're assaulted, that consent is overrated, you down play when a man makes her feel uncomfortable, and that the poor menz can't do anything now for fear of being accused of SA, and you're wondering where your dd gets her fear from.

Nightclubs have always been this way, and probably always will be. But yes, of course it's assault.
If its any consolation the last time I was in a nightclub the 3 groups of hens there that night were much worse than any of the men... so we're making progress 😐

This is quite a helpful post actually because she isn't a particularly tactile person anyway so (I will probably get shot down in flames for this!) but teenage kids between the ages of 13 and 18 ish do touch each other, knee, hands, arms etc this is however very different to boobs, bum and groin areas but this is how teens navigate their early romantic relationships but this isn't sexual assault. When she was touched on the bus by her male friend that was not sexual assault - the boy thought she was interested in him because they were friends and touching her knee was the next step (when this happened she said he should he have asked her politely - please may I touch your knee!! and she would have said no way f off) - at teenage parties, on school buses between boys and girls this type of thing does happen and at this age surely that is normal and I don't want her to think that it is not. In a nutshell I don't want her to be scared of boys but society and social media and mumsnet seem to make out that boys and men are all creeps and if this what is being taught then no wonder she wants to avoid them at all costs.

BUT this got me thinking she doesn't like touch and I wonder if deep down by ignoring all male attention she is saving herself from ever having to be touched hugged etc. As far as I am aware she has never had any romantic feeling for a boy (because she is worried that are all after just one thing). She is not quite 19 so very young but I do wonder if she could be asexual or maybe when she gets to realise you have to trust men sometimes she will become more confident in navigating male/female relationships.

Your second post is much more sympathetic, OP.

I don’t think every man trying to buy lingerie for a woman is ‘not good’, however. DH has managed it only a couple of times and found it highly embarrassing (never mind that he could not possibly fit into my sizes :)). DD may be making some assumptions that she should challenge.

Just worth considering, with no judgment attached: could DD be gay, and struggling with this? Or asexual and struggling with that? Could there be a buried episode in her past she hasn’t come to terms with? Because the fuller picture does sound unusual. It seems this attitude to all men could either be a reaction to something or masking something.

DD is an adult; if she doesn’t want to look into this that is her privilege. But keeping secrets from ourselves is usually hard work.

Asexual is a possibility, gay maybe but she has never shown a romantic interest in girls either. I think it is the touch, groping, kissing thing that freaks her out and probably my fault for letting her go clubbing as these type of things are rife in clubs but at nearly 19 she is an adult but I should have put my foot down and I know that now as she cannot cope with situations like this.

So because her friends parents have taken this incident to the police it has really made her even more against men- (again I will got shot down for this) but this happened in a nightclub which is a meat market for letches - (shouldn't happen but it does!) not in the workplace or on a train which is a completely different environment.

We are sticking by our claim that this isn't sexual assault because if she honestly believes that I don't think she will go near a man again which is basically what has slowly been happening over the last few years.

She often says to me all men are only after one thing SEX,and I think the whole thing repulses her.

It's true that it was common when I was young. We didn't necessarily consider groping to be sexual assault and we knew the police would not be interested.
On the other hand, nobody would then go on to be dancing and snogging with the gropers. That was going on with different boys/men.

OP,
I think your views on this are outdated. I'm in my late 50s and me and my friends found creepy blokes creepy even back when we were teens. It's never been ok to pinch someone's bum.

What are you views on wolf whistling? There are plenty of women on Mumsnet who think it's ok.

My two adult daughters are long haired, slim with curvy bodies and big boobs and seem to attract a lot of attention from creeps. I don't know if it's worse because of their looks or not. I think it might be. They just wear normal clothes. I've seen them be shouted at by blokes driving past them in the middle of the day. They also used to get wolf whistled at when they were school age and in the school uniform. Would you see that as just something that happens?

I wonder if your daughter is nervous because you've given her the impression that it's not a big deal if a bloke is a bit creepy. It's harder to deal with if you don't feel you should do anything about it. My girls always knew that creepy behaviour was not ok and that they shouldn't put up with any shite at all. There is no grey area.

I was unfortunately gropped a lot as a teenager in clubs. Would be by a certain group of men...

It is assault but unfortunately nightclubs have always been like that. Perhaps she should stick to the pub?

This thought also really stood out to me too. Reading all the responses I couldn’t believe anyone else wasn’t picking up on this….. until I got to your post.

@ventandrant do you think you could have a chat with your daughter to make sure that the boy on the bus didn’t touch more than her knee? Or that something else hasn’t happened during her childhood or teens that has made her so fearful of men touching her, that they are just out for sex.