bum pinching in night clubs!

[ventandrant]

I am a parent to 2 teens one being almost 19 and she has just started going out, she goes to pubs in the town centre and quite likes the pub culture but what she hates is men/boys constantly looking at her. Last weekend her and her friends went clubbing after the pub and her friend got her bum pinched, her friends parents are now in talks with the club as her friend thinks she was sexually assaulted, because it wasn't consensual and he didn't ask first they think this is sexual assault.

My DD said in the club its constantly boys trying to touch girls up but they don't ask first so it is assault. When I was young and used to go clubbing that is how it was - you may get touched and then you would have a snog on the dance floor sometimes it would lead to exchanging numbers but other times it would lead to absolutely nothing and sometimes I would end up snogging 3 men in one night!!

They say they will never go clubbing again as they are scarred for life but two of them especially seem of frightened of boys even talking to them because of this culture of "consent", their other friend is the opposite she flirts constantly and has had lots of one night stands and several relationships with boys from about 14 onwards but none of the other three have.

Opinions please. Is this assault? I want to try and give her a balanced view of life and relationships but she thinks all boys are bad because all you hear about is "assault" and "consent".

My DS had a girl slap his bum in a nightclub. He told the bouncers, they found the girl on CCTV. They forced her to apologise and then kicked her and her friends out.

Ok another question.

Would parents of a 19 year old girl take an incident like this to the police?

@ventandrant this 👆🏼

It's up to your DD, I'd encourage at least telling a bouncer. My DS chose not to because he didn't want the ruin the girl's life over a drunken mistake and she did apologise and was kicked out.

Imagine being a 19 yo girl who has been touched without consent and rightly concerned about the misogyny in society, and your mum is on Mumsnet saying that you were in a 'meat market' anyway and you essentially need to get over it showing no thought for your feelings at all

You don’t think sexual assault happens in the workplace? Or the train? Or to children..? Just underdressed women in night clubs, yeah?

This isn’t about man hating, it’s about not victim blaming. This girl has every right to report someone for groping her without consent. The less rapists there are in the world the better. And you best believe if they are grappling at clubs they are doing more, wherever they can get away with it. The bigger problem would be ignoring it and letting these men continue unchecked.

Yes, of course there are men who can be trusted. But the reality of where and how many is the issue. Too many women are raped by close friends and family members. And at what should be the safest places in the world. Asleep in their own beds even! Gisele Pelicot’s husband easily found 50 (now convicted) men to rape her while she was unconscious within their own local area. It wasn’t even that hard. They had a whole chatroom of 70,000 members discussing how to get away with assault and trading tips/stories/videos/etc. Not all men, but 70,000 in that one French chat site alone.

Every single woman who stands up and says they won’t take it is brave as fuck and turning the tide on a huge problem, they should have unrelenting support from everyone. Especially from the “good” men of the world. They shouldn’t have any problem weeding out and holding accountable the nonces, abusers and assaulting bastards everywhere, at any level. And neither should you.

oh! But won’t someone think of the men.

Lots of replies here thank you. Mumsnet is very different to real life views though and it often is. In my opinion I wouldn't call it sexual assault and neither do most people i have spoken to in IRL .I agree it is wrong- but by going to a club this is what happens

Real life? Do you not think the posters on this thread are real people?

So you basically think it's wrong, but that girls and women should put just put up with it because that's what they have to do if they want a date ir a boyfriend? How depressing that there are still women who not only think this way themselves, but want to pass this attitude on to their daughters as well.

And did I get this right? You don't understand how men and women can start to date without being groped/snogged by a stranger (in a club, for example)? That's sad.

No wonder the daughter is so terrified of intimacy. I wouldn’t want physical contact with people either if I was raised to think I could only have a boyfriend by letting him grab at my parts before I was ready or aware what was happening!!!

Has it occurred to you that she has probably experienced more than 'just' a hand on her knee at school, in pubs, on public transit and just existing on the planet?

Op you've mentioned a few times that some of her friends or family "love the attention" ( I'm paraphrasing).
Using language like this makes it seem like you think loving the attention is normal and the default.
It also makes it seem like there's only two options ie loving all the attention and your dd's extreme stance.
But of course there are preferences in between, and these could change day to day, even minute by minute.

Of course it’s assault and just because it used to happen in our day doesn’t make it right.

Im older and it shocks me looking back how much women tolerated because society was so patriarchal. I remember a man constantly groping me years ago in a bar, I told him to fuck off and he shoved his hand hard between my legs so I slapped him - guess who got thrown out!

Unwanted touching is of course wrong.

But they do seem very immature to be saying that lads looking scares them. Parents really should give their children the emotional tools to be able to deal with flirting.

Wow op, just wow. You're lying to your daughter by saying that something that is assault isn't, how is that supposed to help her in any way? No wonder she can't analyse the situation well ie, understand that some men are creeps but some are great people able to have a respectful relationship, when her parents confuse and gaslight the situation? She won't feel comfortable talking to you if something bad does happen in the future.

Nightclubs aren't for her, but I'm surprised by your handling if the situation.

There’s nothing wrong with guys buying sexy lingerie/tops for their wives or girlfriends OP

No. I mean, I agree it’s assault but honestly the best course of action is to give the perpetrator a shove and tell him to back off.

If she can’t bring herself to do that and gets so upset at the thought of this sort of thing happening, then perhaps clubs aren’t the best place for her.

There are also degrees of sexual assault, obviously.

Honestly OP I’m quite appalled by your updates and you seem to almost be victim blaming ‘oh well she goes to clubs so what does she expect’

You're gaslighting your daughter into lowering her consent boundaries.

I have a 20 year old son who goes out to a few pubs and clubs. If I thought for a minute he was groping random girls, I’d be tellIng him his fortune in no uncertain terms not giving him the impression it’s ok because girls going to clubs should expect it

you may get touched and then you would have a snog on the dance floor sometimes it would lead to exchanging numbers but other times it would lead to absolutely nothing and sometimes I would end up snogging 3 men in one night!!

Er, I was going clubbing in the early 90s and, yes, bum pinching/boob grabbing happened.

However, I never once snogged a single man who did this because I recognised, even then that it was assault.

I wouldn't he bragging about having such poor boundaries and low standards that you admit to snogging and giving your number to some random bloke who pinched your arse as you walked past him!

I do think the nightclub experience was sexual assault.

The reality of our times is that I would never disrespect anyone who wanted to exercise their legal options by taking it to the police, but I would secretly think ‘good luck’.

OP, you probably know that only a minuscule proportion of actual rape complaints are prosecuted. What are the chances that a complaint of bum slapping would be taken seriously by the police? To be clear, I am not minimising your DD’s distress but I am asking whoever is thinking about going to the police to consider how the young woman or women will feel if the complaint is not taken seriously. Will they be glad they tried, or feel more bitter?

BTW if they did not complain at the time, so that CCTV has been reviewed and the guy(s) identified, there will be practical obstacles.

I am sorry to sound discouraging about this. I am an academic at a university with less than optimal counselling facilities and a few women students have shared their difficulties in the aftermath of sexual assault with me over the years. The legal side is formidable.

I think you should be grateful your daughter has higher standards than you do.

I remember being a young girl and this happening. It was NOT nice and I applaud your daughter. 👏

Someone put their hands on her without asking.
If they pinch her bum or tried to stroke her leg then is that okay?
If they slapped her bum or groped her bum, is that okay?
It's sexual and flirty, is that okay?
Boys will be boys....
But when is it not okay?
When the pinch is on her breast?
When the grope is on her privates?
When the slap is across her face?

No means bloody NO.
You do not touch someone without their permission.

Christ alive my little DS doesn't like hugs off extended family, I would not force him to hug others just get on with it, so that other people who bust boundaries can then feel more comfortable at his expense.
He tells them a resounding NO and he's only 5!
Your daughter won't tolerate crap.
She is a clever girl.
Support her.

Oh god, really? You think it's the job of the victim to physically shove their assailant. The longer we as women hang onto this Benny Hill'esque scenario, the longer it will take society to realise that non consensual sexual touch isn't just something to laugh off. We are not male property to pinch or fondle as and when they feel like it. We shouldn't go for a night out and fully expect to shove, slap or kick another (much stronger) human being. Apart from the many other wrongs about your assertion, it could also lead to a very dangerous situation for the female.

As someone who came of age in the late 90s/early 2000s, this kind of lecherous, handsy behaviour was sadly just part and parcel of a night out.

Back then I probably wouldn’t have considered a bum pinch/slap to be SA, just bloody cheeky and frankly, an approach that would have guaranteed he’d have no luck with me! I did have a particularly unpleasant encounter when I was about 23 in a nightclub in Mumbai when over there for work. Squeezing out of the door to get some fresh air outside, a man who was coming the opposite way through the door at the same time decided to grope my crotch. He was past me and disappeared into the crowd before I even really registered what had happened. But if I’d been able to identify him I certainly would have reported it.

I don’t think you should be minimising this with your daughter. Call it out for what it was, make sure she knows how brave an act is it to report stuff like this but then make sure she understands that for every gropey, creepy, crude, debauched pervert out there, there are many more who are respectful, kind, caring, chivalrous, polite and considerate and know how to behave appropriately with everyone they encounter.

So this is sexual assault - there are degrees of SA, and this is on the more 'minor' end (the most serious being rape), but that doesn't mean it's still not horrible and something that will linger in her mind.

Legally, SA is defined as unwanted touching of a body part in a deliberate and sexualised way. We can see that pinching someone's bum in a club fulfils all these categories.

• unwanted - the perpetrators never ask, so how would they know if it's wanted or not? The victim can't say 'no', because the perpetrator never gives them a chance to say, 'yes'.
• Deliberate - if someone just brushed past your daughter and accidentally brushed her bum with their hand, this would be 'unwanted' but not assault, as it wouldn't have been a deliberate act. In contrast, someone pinching/grabbing her bum WOULD be assault, because there is the deliberate intention to grab her sexually.

I totally understand how bum grabbing can feel like a minor thing, and how her reaction can feel like an overreaction. Bum grabbing/slapping can be totally ok and cool in some contexts - for example, one of my friends regularly slaps my butt as a joke, which I find funny. In this context, it can be hard to understand how an act which feels fine when done by one person could feel so sickening and violating when done by another. I find it helpful therefore not just to think of sexual assault as an action, but as a DYNAMIC. The people pinching girl's bottoms in nightclubs are generally unknown to the women. Their intention isn't benevolent - it's at best a lack of understanding about the rules of consent, and at worst a deliberate enjoyment of female sexual humiliation, and of overriding someone's boundaries. It's dark in the club, so it's hard to see the perpetrator, so it feels confusing and stressful. Loud music is playing, there are lots of people: it feels like you are being hunted.

When I used to go to underage club nights it was definitely a game, for teenage boys to pinch girls bums and to 'get off' with as many boys as possible . We saw it as fun then.
I think attitudes have changed and I think it's wildly inappropriate in todays world.
If it's not fun for your daughter and her friends then it's not fun, they shouldn't have to lighten up. Unwanted physical contact isn't ok, especially not sexualised touching.

Rather than worrying about giving her a "balanced perspective" perhaps support your daughter in calling out inappropriate behaviour and stop normalising what is sexual harrassment/assault. Spend your time worrying why young men think this behaviour is acceptable. It is not.

Just because it was once club culture or whatever doesn't make it right. At least your daughter and her friends sound clued up on what is acceptable, huge respect to them. Sounds like they won't fall for the type of men who see women as sexual objects to use as they wish. Good for them!