bum pinching in night clubs!

[ventandrant]

I am a parent to 2 teens one being almost 19 and she has just started going out, she goes to pubs in the town centre and quite likes the pub culture but what she hates is men/boys constantly looking at her. Last weekend her and her friends went clubbing after the pub and her friend got her bum pinched, her friends parents are now in talks with the club as her friend thinks she was sexually assaulted, because it wasn't consensual and he didn't ask first they think this is sexual assault.

My DD said in the club its constantly boys trying to touch girls up but they don't ask first so it is assault. When I was young and used to go clubbing that is how it was - you may get touched and then you would have a snog on the dance floor sometimes it would lead to exchanging numbers but other times it would lead to absolutely nothing and sometimes I would end up snogging 3 men in one night!!

They say they will never go clubbing again as they are scarred for life but two of them especially seem of frightened of boys even talking to them because of this culture of "consent", their other friend is the opposite she flirts constantly and has had lots of one night stands and several relationships with boys from about 14 onwards but none of the other three have.

Opinions please. Is this assault? I want to try and give her a balanced view of life and relationships but she thinks all boys are bad because all you hear about is "assault" and "consent".

She has a dad, a brother and grandad and an uncle but that is about it. Our family is very female heavy and all her cousins are girls - most of my friends have girls too so even when she was growing up she never really had much to do with any boys.

She is starting uni in September and has opted for a single sex hall because she has heard how boys come into girls rooms in the middle of the night.

Because we don't really know may boys and I think because of what happened on the bus and what happened to her friend she thinks all boys and men are evil. Hopefully as she gets older her view will change but when I see her friends and cousins loving the dating game it is a but sad that she isn't experiencing that. Her 2 cousins who are 18 and 19 both have boyfriends but she says they have changed as their boyfriends control them and what they can do. I admit one of them does have a boyfriend that isn't very nice but the other ones boyfriend is lovely but she thinks he is only with her for sex!!

It's probably your attitude that's making her feel that way. If she can't trust her own Mother to be upset when she gets randomly groped then who can she trust.

You clearly have no regard for consent and think she should be flattered if some random man assaults her just because it didn't bother you when you were out clubbing.

This. I’m actually so beyond disgusted with OP I don’t want to read this post any further. Talking about “consent” in quotation marks and saying it’s a modern culture thing that women should not be sexually touched without their permission…

Jesus suffering fuck. I despair for that poor girl, I hope someone in her life is empowering her properly.

The last time I went clubbing was 13 years ago, I was 20.
I never went again because a man shoved his hand up my dress and inside my underwear and touched my bare vulva.

It happened so fast, but it put me off going into environments with lots of people and drinking. I found it so awful and triggering due to past abuse, although it was bad enough on its own.

It makes me so sad that things like this are still happening and unless young women speak out and have people advocating for them, I guess nothing will ever change.

When I tried to speak up I got told "that's what happens when lads are pissed".

I wish I had parents like this girl.

Men need to learn to keep their hands to themselves unless they ask or are asked.

OP, you need to really unpack your internalised misogyny.
A good motto is "unless it's a hell yes, it's a hell no".

Enthusiastic consent Must be obtained otherwise yes, it is either physical or sexual assault.

Nightclubs, festivals and pubs generally when they are packed are incompatible with modern attitudes to uninvited physical contact. That's one of the main reasons young people don't attend them anymore and why they're gradually dying out.

This is so beautifully put i wanted to repeat it.

Pissed up youngsters squashed together in a hot, dark, thumping music venue at night. It's not ever going to produce anything except rude/lewd behaviour. (rude/lewd are the best catch all words i can think of).

It's not good. I remember it fondly though

A few of my friends from school hated it and never went. They have normal lives just like me. You don't have to go to clubs and if less folk chose to they will just become 'a thing they used to do in the old days'. Which is fine.

Yes it happened me in the early 2000s but yes in the legal sense, it is sexual assault. I’m also surprised it still happens in this day and age 🙁.

Socialize elsewhere. Yo to risky dodgy places and you risk assult common sense.
People should engage in sports or activities that are safe. Dingy nightclubs and pubs are not social locations. Your OP proves that.

I have to say that I am slightly confused how relationships start these days given how cautious both parties need to be

i mean right? Like is it even a relationship if it’s not started with a little touch of sexual assault?

It’s sexual harassment.

The last time I went out out was as lockdown restrictions lifted. Finally got onto the dance floor with my pals and a bunch of men came over and sexually harassed me. I can’t remember the exact details but I yelled at the guy who did it and they all laughed. Told security who didn’t give a shit. We had actually brought our own bottle of wine in and stashed the empty bottle. I then took it up to security that they were drinking their own drink. That got them thrown out…

Would you say to your daughter it’s ok for a bloke to touch her if he was handsome?
but what about an ugly bloke? A bloke double her age? A bloke who doesn’t speak English? A bloke who grabs her arse cheek? A bloke who slides his hands down her skirt? A bloke who unbuckles her bra? What about the lad who pinned me against the wall at a party after I said I didn’t want a kiss?

What point do you think consent matters?
do you think it matters if you daughter consents to sex and he then feels entitled to anal? What about recording it? If he wants his mates to join in?

It sounds like you're saying your daughter should put up with being groped by strangers, if not be a bit flattered by it 🤨

You're trying to teach your daughter values that literally the majority of women around the world are fighting against

It’s almost like normal healthy relationships are started on a mutual ground of respect and understanding, not just grabbing at whatever genitals happen to cross your paths. But idk, I’m clearly part of this “consent” culture that’s sweeping the nation and who would get into that

It is definitely assault both legally and (im)morally. Nevertheless one should also learn proportionality. It doesn’t often enter discourse but when everything is sexual assault then it also diminishes serious sexual assault. This is just a fact. If a man touches my bum without my consent he has assaulted me, nevertheless I need to respond as such. Not as if I have been raped. And I have known young women say it’s the same. In conversation with my daughter. It isn’t. Let’s not pretend to ourselves it is. As there are women everyday whose terrible experiences are diminished by their friends because it’s all the same. Heinous. And not a little bit offensive.

Poor women. Not even their mum has their back and is excusing sexual assault. Seems like your daughters have more sense then you, OP.

Yes it is assault. I am so glad the proper language is finally being used for this. My bum was constantly pinched when I was going out in the 90s. I also worked as a lounge girl in a pub and couldn't pass through a crowd of men without having my bum pinched. I still remember taking deep breaths as I ploughed through a group knowing what would happen. I have 3 teenage girls and very much teach them about consent and what is not ok and should not be tolerated or expected like I had to do. I find the direct approach works if you've the confidence. Call them out on it the minute it happens and let them know you'll be reporting them to management for assault.

Op you need to do better for your daughter stop normalising and excusing sexual assault.

Gosh there's a lot to unpick here op.

My question would be why is your bar so low that you're trying to lower your dds bar?

Tbh I'd be really proud that my dd was so informed on healthy boundaries and consent and was able to identify that boys should not be touching her legs on the bus or touching her friends bums on nights out or being controlling. I used to go out all the time as a teen and at the time I accepted that in order to go out I had to accept that I'd be groped in the club but let's just take a second to recognise how utterly fucked up that is?! Your dd SHOULD be able to get a bus or go for a night out with her mates without being leered over or touched without consent. If she doesn't want to put herself in a position where that's likely to happen then to me, that's her choice to make. I don't think that makes her overly sensitive or ridiculous. I certainly wouldn't be undermining her or the concept of "consent" as you write it but instead I'd be praising her for being informed and advocating for herself but also trying to help her identify what she would like in a partner. And point out those people and tell her they are worth looking for because they are out there.

I also think you need to do some serious work on your own idea of consent and healthy boundaries op because it sounds like you've just been desensitised to it all and the messages you're putting here are really harmful.

Is this a 'woke' thing OP? You're so annoyed about everything being so bloody woke these days that you're letting it influence your opinion on this?

Consent is not woke, and I can't believe you've said to your daughter what you have and actually written it out on a public forum like this.

This sadlly was and still is a part of some nightlife.

The music I loved and circles I moved in meant it was rarer but it still happened. At maintream clubs my female firneds and I used to form a dance circle and physically form a barrier to keep handsy men out. A firm step back on the foot also does wonders to deter a bum grabber.

It is becommi g less accepted at clubs and gigs, but it needs everyone to call it out - is a really good initiaitve www.dontbeacreep.co.uk/

I remember being 19ish so quite a bit back now, and being in a club.

I was dancing away with all my friends and felt someone touch my bum, I turned around and slapped the assaulter hard in the face, he recoiled and actually had the audacity to complain to a bouncer about me assaulting him, the bouncer removed him swiftly from the club and from what I gather barred him.

If that would have happened now I wouldn't hesitate in reporting, it is sexual assault, and needs to be taken seriously.

I can't fathom your attitude op.

I used to go clubbing a lot and me and my peers never had this bum punching happen.

It was pre internet and pre internet porn.

It is assault. It was always assault.

The problem is the men doing it.

It's horrid that women now feel they have to change their behaviour because of these violent men.

Exactly this. OP are you listening to yourself? The way you are approaching this is absolutely mental in this day and age, and I am really concerned for your future relationship with your poor DD. I can only assume you've had some really negative experiences that you've taken to be normal (we all probably have had this at some stage before we start to realise or be educated in our own bodily autonomy).

The idea that you think women cant meet men to have a relationship with, unless they are prepared to accept being stared at and groped like prey, is deeply fucked up, I hope you will learn some things through posting this thread. She's better off without any man than one who does those things. Which makes me wonder how the men in your family treat the women now I say it...

Lots of replies here thank you. Mumsnet is very different to real life views though and it often is. In my opinion I wouldn't call it sexual assault and neither do most people i have spoken to in IRL .I agree it is wrong- but by going to a club this is what happens - similar to festivals etc. Most of her friends love male attention so that's why they frequent clubs and festivals. One of my friends who has a teenage son says life for him is horrendous as he can't look or speak to a girl without being accused of inappropriate behaviour, so he doesn't go out all now. My DD is similar and if she doesn't feel safe anywhere where men may be that is fine as I understand it is her choice but I just want whats best for her and I think consent and the media has gone a bit far and some young people are becoming scared to socialise.

Her friends parents have gone to the police (but DD's friends is 19 so an adult) so the police are not being that helpful. Not sure if this is really the right way to go but obviously my views are very different to everyone else on this forum.

I met my DH in a club and he looked at me a few times in a row at different pubs around our local town - then one week in a club he touched my shouldrand we got talking and that is how we got together. I don't want my DD to be scared of a man looking at her otherwise how is she ever going to start a relationship. At present she wants to never have a man in her life as and adopt children - this is fine but can also see her being very lonely.

That's so weird, my sons are 24 and 20 and they aren't afraid of speaking to or looking at women, and neither have been accused of anything. Wonder what your friends son is like having been accused multiple times.

MN is full of people who also exist in the real world, sounds like you just surround yourself with apologists for male behaviour.

Imagine bringing your daughter up to not only expect to be sexually assaulted, but to take it as some type of compliment. No wonder your poor dd feels as she does.

In my opinion I wouldn't call it sexual assault and neither do most people i have spoken to in IRL .I agree it is wrong- but by going to a club this is what happens - similar to festivals etc

I'm glad my mother didn't have your attitude. How depressing.

One of my friends who has a teenage son says life for him is horrendous as he can't look or speak to a girl without being accused of inappropriate behaviour, so he doesn't go out all now.
Poor lamb. I mean, all he has to do is not grab women's bums. It must be difficult for him.

I met my DH in a club and he looked at me a few times in a row at different pubs around our local town - then one week in a club he touched my shouldrand we got talking and that is how we got together
If you can't tell the difference between touching someone's shoulder and grabbing their bum we can't help you.