To think Trump is right

[Donotpanicoknowpanic]

Watching the press conference last night which descended into an argument

I can't help think Trump was right and made good points

Thousands of troops are dying and being seriously injured every month

Trump wants it to stop

There are thousands of people who have children alive today who will not be alive tomorrow because of this war

They are clearly in a stalemate and soldiers are now dying untill peace terms are made as no side can win on the battlefield

Trump as brutal as it sounds was being realistic about what peace would be like

Ukraine has to be realistic

If Ukraine sign the rare earth deal with America then America will have a stake in Ukraine and they should then get a better security deal

Trump has not agreed what that is yet, it's clear he wants the European's to form a big part of that

The European's want American troops and for good reason

But this has to stop and the only way it will stop is by peace negotiations

And these have to be realistic and Trump is saying it as it is

That is very true but thousands of those British soldiers were conscripted.

Are you happy for your child to be conscripted?

If you are, then your point is a valid one.

If you are not, will you still be singing the same tune when the call up papers for your child drops through the letterbox.

How will you feel if your child is killed in some Eastern European forest? Many mothers in World War 1 and World War 2 had mingled pride with sadness, they kept their child's photograph in a prominent place and took comfort in the fact that they died doing the right thing.

Will you be proud that your child-Go forbid- died fighting for Ukrainian freedom?

If you will, then I salute you and you have every right to talk about the bravery of British soldiers who died fighting Hitler because you too are prepared to sacrifice your child.

If you are not, rein it in a bit and think on.

Do you think world war 2 could have been prevented by sitting down and talking to Hitler?

Neville Chamberlain did...

Countries send their armies to foreign countries to stop the war before it reaches your doorstep. It is easier to fight an enemy farther afield rather than when he's knocking on your door. Putin is not going to stop with Ukraine if he gets his way.

Ukraine has to be realistic

If Ukraine sign the rare earth deal with America then America will have a stake in Ukraine and they should then get a better security deal

My understanding is that they were prepared to sign the rare earth mineral deal and prepared to concede some land.

The dispute, as I understand it, is over security guarantees.

The US appear to be saying that the only security they need is Putin's good word and the assumption the US will want to protect their new economic interests in Ukraine.

Ukraine want either the freedom to join NATO (unlikely) or a sentence in the agreement saying that NATO/the US will defend them if Putin tries to annex more of their country. Trump wants them to proceed without this security.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn527pz54neo.amp

Please correct me if I am wrong!

Yes and that message is lie down and let Putin and I totally fuck you over.

Trump and his dancing monkey boy, Vance, are a disgrace and an embarrassment to America. Their arrogance and bullying tactics are breathtakingly appalling and I cannot believe decent Americans are letting this happen. Trump is bringing shame to America on the world stage. He is nothing more than Putin’s puppet.

So by your logic:
Armed gang breaks in to a bank,
hostages fight back,
Some of the gang get hurt and so do some of the hostages,
The police commander turns up and says "I'll stop this" Give the gang some of what they want, give me lots of money and then the gang will leave"
Everyone goes on their merry way. The gang are happy, the police commander is very happy and the bank and the people in it - well they don't really matter.
Then the armed gang, knowing that no-one will stop them because the police commander (who may or may not have a relationship with the gang) did really well out if it last time, go to the nearest bank and do it all again.
So you keep thinking Trump and Vance are right and the rest of us bank customers will look on terrified.

Zelensky was supposed to come in and sign a mineral deal but then pushes for a security guarantee, which is not at all on the table.

What did he expect really?

Rubio looked furious. Probably because his team negotiated that deal
in the first place. Rubio then kicked him out of the WH and cut aid for power line restoration ….

He fucked around and then found out

It's quite simple, actually:
Trump can't end the war.
Zelensky can't end the war.
Putin CAN end the war, but he doesn't want to.
Who should the pressure be on?

@Donotpanicoknowpanic you don’t mention Russia once in your posts. Got any thoughts on their role in all this?

It was awful to watch. I think it was all for show for Putin. When Trump started ranting about Joe Biden and Hunter Biden - omg. Russia needs to stop fighting and I don’t blame Ukraine for wanting security guarantees.

The greatest lie of the 20th century are that somehow we should fear Russia and not the USA. As if US involvement in anything is any better than Russia. The US control the world - they have established military bases in UK and Central Europe, in Japan and South Korea etc. America is the real danger to the world and always have been. We have seen this play out in the middle east and asia.

America have invaded a lot more countries than Russia in recent history - somehow we in Europe think that's ok though because those countries were not close to home.

Trump is just doing what the US have always done behind closed doors - except now he's televising it as a reality TV show for the world to see. Obama presided over 10 times more drone strikes than Bush. He was just better at pretending to want peace.

Right now Ukraine need to pick their evil (US or Russia)- but it won't do them or Europe any service to be naive and outraged at the US acting American.

1. Declare war on Russia and actually join the conflict.
2. Up our help for Ukraine which likely will inevitably lead to[the point above]

I don't agree that increasing aid to Ukraine, and taking a tougher line with Russia, would inevitably lead to America joining the conflict. It's more likely to lead to some kind of settlement, given the state of the Russian economy and military. Putin won't want to back out of their with nothing, but he might be persuaded to accept a token, in order to save face.

OneLemondog, if Europe will not step up then exporting Ukraine will happen, either by USA, Russia or both. This is what USA has done to many countries in the Middle East. This is what the USA does they just not normally to Europeans. It’s not right but it’s up to Europeans to stop it if they want to pay for it and sacrifice their own young men.

That is Trump's stated view but no, I don't think it does offer security. It offers limited security to American workers, American mining sites and American compounds. It offers nothing by way of security to Ukrainians. It might stop Russia attacking major infrastructure (although I doubt even this, to be honest. I think the Americans would set up their own mini power grids etc and would be pre-warned by the Russians of an attack), but it won't prevent Russian cyber attacks or other destabilising actions.

No they haven't
They've spent nowhere near the 300 billion trump claimed and Europe have spent more

Hope this helps
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crew8y7pwd5o

My words would have been ruder, but the message the same as yours

The US control the world - they have established military bases in UK and Central Europe, in Japan and South Korea etc.

Yes. They dress this up as some kind of self-sacrificing benevolent gesture, when it's actually all about control. Trump is a fool to think that withdrawing will in any way strengthen America.

Trump is never right @Donotpanicoknowpanic
He can be useful though: If you are unsure what to think about something, find out what Trump thinks and think the opposite.
Also works for a number of other people including any members of Reform UK.
Hope that helps.

Probably but it's indicative of the level of OP's discourse, tbh.

I applaud you.

Yes it is deeply unsettling to watch a powerful ally descend onto dictatorship. But Europe must act as one and soon.

We need massive investment in our military to cover the areas currently being covered by the USA. However this spending will provide jobs as well as security.

America has embraced me first for a long time, and that is very easily exploited on social media. The US public can't be trusted to not vote in a rapist. That should be a very sobering thought indeed.

My hunch has been the same - the killing needs to stop. But... what Trump and Vance did in the Oval was wholly unacceptable. As are the lies - Putin is the aggressor, Ukraine did NOT start the war. I don't know how much Russia has left, their military is depleted to critical levels, and their economy is on its arse. So... I'm 100% team Zelenskyy, keep resisting wee man 💪🇺🇦

I think the time has to to accept that Ukraine is not going to win and that they shall have to allow Russia some sort of victory

will Putin stop, for a while but either way he isn’t going to stop and he has extremely powerful allies

The rest of the world isn’t concerned with Ukraine and Europe will only do so much to protect Ukraine

best to back down now make the rest of the country and close countries safer

...yeah accept thats not what happened at all...

This is literally year nine history.

Appeasement doesn't work in the long term.

And that would work how?

Do tell.