To think Trump is right

[Donotpanicoknowpanic]

Watching the press conference last night which descended into an argument

I can't help think Trump was right and made good points

Thousands of troops are dying and being seriously injured every month

Trump wants it to stop

There are thousands of people who have children alive today who will not be alive tomorrow because of this war

They are clearly in a stalemate and soldiers are now dying untill peace terms are made as no side can win on the battlefield

Trump as brutal as it sounds was being realistic about what peace would be like

Ukraine has to be realistic

If Ukraine sign the rare earth deal with America then America will have a stake in Ukraine and they should then get a better security deal

Trump has not agreed what that is yet, it's clear he wants the European's to form a big part of that

The European's want American troops and for good reason

But this has to stop and the only way it will stop is by peace negotiations

And these have to be realistic and Trump is saying it as it is

Support - feeling that he is in the right - no problem.

Support - sticking my hand in my pocket with further taxation or agreeing to austerity cuts - okay

Support - shipping off my 17yo in four months time to play world police - fuck no.

@Igotjelly unfortunately that goes both ways I've seen the same stuff repeated ad nauseum

I've seen posters attacked for being a bot and being pro kremlin for simply looking at this with more depth and pragmatism

🇱🇹

There’s no misinformation though. The OP clearly stated it his/her opinion. People are allowed to have opinions and hopefully by having a civilized discussion a few points could be clarified and ironed out.

Ukrainian war isn’t black and white and neither is any of the US wars so I think it helps to have someone else voicing their opinion or concerns. It’s like with gender ideology - better for people to say what they think rather than have resentment boiling under the hood. Look at what policing of speech done to US elections. Sooner or later comes the person who says what they want to say and the tide changes.

MN should be supporting a pro UK Western Europe stance, Russia is the enemy here, they caused the COL crisis, they have killed 100s of 1000s of Ukrainians... bombing energy infrastructure, hospitals, rape, child kidnaps, summary executions....

They threaten our way of life, even using nerve agent here in the UK.

The BBC have been hauled over the coals for allowing a program aired with pro Hamas views.

Yet you allow a never ending stream of pro Kremlin views & threads..., its beyond naive, the Russians have used their proxies to attack UK networks, do you think they wouldn't use MN to push their propaganda?

I'm sure many mothers thought the same in the World Wars but you know what they went and we now live in a free country thanks to those men.

Or was that okay because it's not your precious boy?

@Merrymouse what does putin want? What terms because I thought putin wanted the whole of Ukraine and he won't get it
Putin would also get the USA embedded on the border via a mine system.
There are financial guarantees as well in the deal.
How is that doing what the kremlin wants I don't believe he wants any of that?
Have you read rubio on putin.

What an insane position to take. Trump is unhinged as is Putin. Ukraine should not have to capitulate to either of these wankers.

I'm all for depth and pragmatism.
What is your view about how the war should end?

Ukrainian war isn’t black and white

Really, so Ukraine attacked Russia.....

Only one party caused this war and only one party can end it.... but they will not.

So you just appease as per WW2 until the situation is 10x worse and they have to go off anyway.

It really is not helpful to call those who have a different point of view, "Russian Bots"
Because:

1. It suggests that a different point of view will just be treated by insulting the holder of it.

2. It smacks of women who used to give white feathers to those men who weren't involved in the war

3. It silences debate. This may be something it wishes to do, although I don't think the thought process is even that advanced.

4. It suggests an unwillingness to listen and, if there is a disagreement, to refute the point of view with unreasoned argument

5. It implies that anyone holding a different view is not real, less than, must be silenced.

6. It is generally made by people who are sometime mentally negligent and who cannot piece an argument together, other than yelling an insult.

7. They are often flag waving people who like a herd mentality and use that herd like grouping to intimidate others.

8. There are various views in this debate. There is no glowing white angel on one side and one demonic beast on the other.

9. I will give these people the compliment of assuming that will be happy to see their sons and daughters brought back in a body bag as if not, then the charge of stinking hypocrisy must be added to the list.

10. Those who roll their eyes at number 9 will know very little history-as the mothers in WW1 and WW2 thought conscription would not happen.

So, yelling "Russian Bot" is very often the cry of those who want war, who may not have thought about the effect their jingoistic "Russian Bot" may have.

I am, of course, not referring to those who have made reasoned posts about why Ukraine must fight on and why Europe must support it and who try to rebut those who say the opposite.

That is a reasoned view, an argument that one may agree or disagree with. I am referring only to those with limited skills who, instead of remaining silent in the lack of anything intelligent to say, yell "Russian Bot. "

@Wildflowers99
So what should we do with the disabled if we cut PIP and DLA?
Ship them to Kennedy’s wellness farms?

@Alexandra2001 no not pro kremlin threads just threads trying to dicuss other ways of dealing with putin as in rl when people chat about current issues.
What happened yesterday was massive and you are surprised people want to talk about it beyond the... Putin very bad let's punch him in the face oh and get nuked.

Wow. Maybe we could have avoided the second world war by letting Hitler take over everywhere. Then we'd have had peace. Hard to believe anyone could side with the disgrace that is Trump - Putin's lapdog but here we are on Mumsnet trying to explain to you why you are so wrong. I despair.

I don't understand. Are you saying that we can only express support for Ukraine if we are willing to physically fight ourselves?

Zelensky is a dick. For months, he saw Russian troops amass on his border and refused to engage in talks to prevent the war - instead thinking his (invisble) NATO mates would back him. Did he think Putin put those troops there as a training exercise

What exactly would this look like. Are you saying he should have just handed Putin the keys to the country to safe lives. In which case where would it stop if all Russia had to do was amass troops on the border of a country to get handed the country

Putin wants Ukraine (not a few border towns or a small part of it, he wants the entire country) short of handing the country over to him lives were going to be lost.

Putin actually thought that he could take Kiev in 3 days. So why would he negotiate

@C0tt0nCandy so I take it you are offering to step up?

I agree completely, @Radiatorvalves - Trump and Vance acted like a pair of bully boys. Their complete and utter lack of respect, of statecraft, of basic manners, were appalling. Decent Americans must be so ashamed of their 'leaders' right now.

@Donotpanicoknowpanic - Trump has called Zelensky a dictator - and then denied he said it - whilst negotiating with Putin, who definitely fits the definition of dictator - and seemed to think it was possible to negotiate a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia without Ukraine at the table! He is pandering to Russia, and seems not to care that Russia was the aggressor, who invaded Ukraine, and Trump is firmly Team Putin. How is any of that 'right'??

Well people will judge for themselves, but Z appears to have taken vigorous steps to remove corruption in the country, as it was a condition of NATO candidature. The photos mis-captioning doesn't add up to much.

@XxSideshowAuntSallyx will it be yours?

Real people are strong because Ukraine was invaded by a hostile force the least of which country Trump bowed to like a submissive dog.

Exactly what terms do you think Trump and Putin would agree to that wouldn't completely screw over the Ukraine?

@BeckyAMumsnet please don’t be so dismissive. I’ve asked before about whether Mumsnet are getting advice and training on disinformation campaigns and your colleague accused me of claiming there had been a “mass influx” of new posters.

Perhaps the reason for the increase in reports, is due to people spotting a disinformation campaign? It’s frankly bizarre for you to think Mumsnet wouldn’t be a target for disinfo attacks.

For what it’s worth I haven’t seen anything unusual in this thread - big difference between those who disagree, useful idiots and actual
agents.

And I take it you’re just prepared to roll over and not learn from pretty big past mistakes. Putin doesn’t stick to deals soooo…. what’s your plan?

This is astonishingly naive.