To think Trump is right

[Donotpanicoknowpanic]

Watching the press conference last night which descended into an argument

I can't help think Trump was right and made good points

Thousands of troops are dying and being seriously injured every month

Trump wants it to stop

There are thousands of people who have children alive today who will not be alive tomorrow because of this war

They are clearly in a stalemate and soldiers are now dying untill peace terms are made as no side can win on the battlefield

Trump as brutal as it sounds was being realistic about what peace would be like

Ukraine has to be realistic

If Ukraine sign the rare earth deal with America then America will have a stake in Ukraine and they should then get a better security deal

Trump has not agreed what that is yet, it's clear he wants the European's to form a big part of that

The European's want American troops and for good reason

But this has to stop and the only way it will stop is by peace negotiations

And these have to be realistic and Trump is saying it as it is

This. Profiteers.

Apologies link not working.

Russia amassed troops BEFORE they invaded.

Its not like they rocked up overnight. They were camped outside Ukraine's border for weeks.

WTF did Zelensky think they were there for? Vacation?

As for the glue remark, keep the personal attacks to yourself please if you cant have a sensible discussion. No one expects everyone to agree on debates, but personal attacks say more about you than it does me.

The pro-Russian propaganda has worked really well on you OP.

What other parts of sovereign European countries (including the UK) are you prepyto hand over to Putin and Trump.

Utterly shameful.

Are you blaming Ukraine for Russia invading?

Zelensky is a dick. For months, he saw Russian troops amass on his border and refused to engage in talks to prevent the war - instead thinking his (invisble) NATO mates would back him. Did he think Putin put those troops there as a training exercise?

What the fuck are you on about? Rewriting history completely here.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/12/17/politics/russia-troops-ukraine-border-biden/index.html

"Russia has been demanding security guarantees from the US and NATO, including a binding pledge that NATO won’t expand further east and will not allow Ukraine to join the military alliance"

"NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg echoed that sentiment in a press conference on Thursday. “We believe that dialogue is important especially when times are difficult as they are now,” he said. “And our invitation to Moscow to meet in the NATO-Russia Council stands, and we are ready to sit down. But we will never compromise on the right of every sovereign nation, as Ukraine, to choose his own path and of the principle that it is for Ukraine and the 30 Allies to decide when Ukraine is ready to join the Alliance.”"

Why the fuck are you blaming Zelensky for something that wasn't even for him to negotiate? Russia was making demands of NATO and the US.

So you're Zelensky in that position. The offer is that Ukraine gets nothing, gets fleeced, and likely sees a resumption of the invasion in early course.

What reason do you have to accept? What are you securing for Ukraine and it's people?

It seems he's being asked to betray his country, "or else".

Yep & the moment you do that... you re banned/suspended.

But spouting pro Kremlin propaganda is all ok....

Completely ignoring the fact we are in a pseudo war with them, they are now our enemy.

You know what would make it less likely that your children won't be conscripted in to a war? Trump not rolling over for Putin.

Probably the same reason Trump behaved as he did: because it would look good to supporters back home who'd insist he's a "strong man"

Yet more pretence ...

What do you do with the people that need that money to live though?

Exactly

Putin was always going to invade, he had no intention of backing down without Ukraine’s complete capitulation. He was certain he could take the country in days and that he would meet no resistance. Nothing Zelenskyy said or did would have changed that.

With North Korean troops? Iranian drones? Or perhaps he'll deploy Russia's inept and under resourced forces to take on NATO.

As for NATO doing nothing, the consequences of such inaction would mean the end of western military alliance along with a green light for any and all aggressors - this ensures a measured NATO response addressing any incursion.

I have a 17 year old son and of course I would not want to see him conscipted to the front line. However, I think the prospect of military consciption in some form is there nomatter what happens now, largely because of the actions taken by the Americans. This isnt going to go away now and any deal that sells out Ukraine will not create a lasting peace. It just gives Putin breathing space to plan his next moves. Other European countries with a border with Russia are probably very worried. All European countries should be worried by how the US is cozying up to Russia and spouting ambitions to takeover Greenland, annex Canada and turn Gaza into a holiday resort for Trump and his ‘mates’.

Bit naive? We know for a fact that Russia employs large numbers of people to shift the conversation/promote propaganda in the West via social media. www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2020/5/pdf/2005-deepportal2-troll-factories.pdf

Point taken.
But there are posters that don't engage in discussion or disagree with specific points. They just write a few lines defending Russia and Trump, and if they come back (usually don't) they repeat the same things.
We've seen how Russia has influenced the American and European elections, and the Brexit referendum. Are we supposed to not point out this is happening everywhere?
I think Mumsnet should have rules about politics discussions as they have for the Sex forum. Don't let anyone with a new account or that hasn't posted in other forums to come here just to spread misinformation.

93% of MNetter support Zelensky, per my poll thread.

It might not feel like that reading this one.

@Igotjelly @akiwi@Alexandra2001 well on mn you can fully support zelensky, you can hate trump and putin but the moment you suggest another way to end this rather than keep going,

Your a Russian bot.

Trumps rant was unprecedented and the exact opposite of diplomacy.
His sole intention was to insult Zelensky, they even insulted his clothing. It was a disgusting display.

Well at least Poland took notice and has built up thier army.

Nobody needs that money ‘to live’.

It’s not about differing viewpoints, it’s about parroting obvious disinformation.

And it’s “you are” or “you’re” - HTH

Yep

I think this is the consensus scenario from most analysts at the moment.