Page 21 | To think Trump is right

AccountCreateUsername · 01/03/2025 11:40

PorridgeOatsSuck · 01/03/2025 08:15

Please let it go, Trump does not want peace. What does he care about the lives of ordinary people? Where did this peacenik thing come about? He simply wants to benefit from the war or keep his pennies and step aside.

This is short sighted and against America's interest. Since WW2, US has deliberately wanted to be the big boss of Western Europe. They have installed their own nukes on our territory, NATO is America's geopolitical vehicle, Europe is the US's backyard. Now, the Orange man wants to turn away. He can do that. But it has consequences. A rearmed, more powerful, more united Europe is not in the interests of the US or indeed Russia.

But personally I thank Trump for this. The US pullaway has been a long time coming, Europe has been sitting on its laurels all the while. Now is the time for Europe to seize its own power and independence. It won't be in the US's interest, however, and anyone in the UK who wants the US to succeed over Europe should go off and try to live there legally (good luck getting a green card in this climate 👍)

👏🏼

MNHQ

BeckyAMumsnet · 01/03/2025 11:40

We've noticed an increasing number of occasions where users are accusing others of being bots or shills or engaging in misinformation simply because they express pro-Trump views (or, really, any political stance that differs from their own). We value robust debate and discussion, but personal attacks, accusations of bad faith, or dismissing users outright in this way stifles conversation and goes against our Talk guidelines.

We expect all posters to engage with the argument, not the individual. To be clear, disagreeing with someone is fine - attacking them personally is not.

Accusations that another user is a "bot", an agent of a foreign state or acting in bad faith just because of their political views are not helpful and will be removed. If you believe a post is factually incorrect, you're welcome to challenge it with counterarguments or reliable sources. Report anything you believe breaks our guidelines, and we'll take a look. Thanks.

MarvellousMarch · 01/03/2025 11:40

@TriathlonTriathlonTriathlon are you able to Google the deal? It's on the BBC website.

Has putin gone for a nato country so far? Why do you think he would go for a nato country when he can't even take Ukraine.

He thought it would be over and he would be in Kiev in 3 days.

Why would he even try and go for an even bigger block?

ZooAccountant · 01/03/2025 11:41

Hancox432 · 01/03/2025 10:46

Europe wants to stand by Ukraine but sadly is realistic that nothing will be accomplished without US support. Sadly I imagine this weekend will be European leaders begging Zelenskey to go crawling back to Trump to broker this deal.

We can all be disgusted and pissed off but the fact of the matter is that without the US support. Ukraine is fucked, sadly Trump knows this so is using that to ensure the US profits from it all.

Show quote history

True. Zelenksy does not have the cultural capital to negotiate though.

Upstartled · 01/03/2025 11:41

Agreed @EasternStandard

I'd like to know how many of these Hawks would ship their own children off to war before I'll be told that I am lacking for not relishing the thought of it for my boys.

TriathlonTriathlonTriathlon · 01/03/2025 11:43

MarvellousMarch · 01/03/2025 11:40

@TriathlonTriathlonTriathlon are you able to Google the deal? It's on the BBC website.

Has putin gone for a nato country so far? Why do you think he would go for a nato country when he can't even take Ukraine.

He thought it would be over and he would be in Kiev in 3 days.

Why would he even try and go for an even bigger block?

You wait and see, he’ll go for some remote piece of land in a NATO country, sit back and watch NATO does nothing, and then what? It undermines article 5, and the whole idea of NATO.

I work in defence, so see extensive analysis.

HelplessSoul · 01/03/2025 11:44

Donotpanicoknowpanic · 01/03/2025 08:04

Watching the press conference last night which descended into an argument

I can't help think Trump was right and made good points

Thousands of troops are dying and being seriously injured every month

Trump wants it to stop

There are thousands of people who have children alive today who will not be alive tomorrow because of this war

They are clearly in a stalemate and soldiers are now dying untill peace terms are made as no side can win on the battlefield

Trump as brutal as it sounds was being realistic about what peace would be like

Ukraine has to be realistic

If Ukraine sign the rare earth deal with America then America will have a stake in Ukraine and they should then get a better security deal

Trump has not agreed what that is yet, it's clear he wants the European's to form a big part of that

The European's want American troops and for good reason

But this has to stop and the only way it will stop is by peace negotiations

And these have to be realistic and Trump is saying it as it is

100% correct.

As I posted on another thread:

Zelensky is a dick. For months, he saw Russian troops amass on his border and refused to engage in talks to prevent the war - instead thinking his (invisble) NATO mates would back him. Did he think Putin put those troops there as a training exercise?

He has spaffed countless lives and money and munitions on this war and now wants other troops to die for his country. No sane leader would put their troops on the line for a war that was avoidable.

Like him or not Trump was right to call Zelensky out on this - and for Zelensky to try and play this out in the media was a fucking stupid move. And it was a disgrace that he attempted this on US soil, and in the Oval Office/White House.

Everyone would be up in arms if any world leader did the same to Zelensky in Kyiv. Its completely uncouth and unacceptable.

The USA should fuck him off, especially after the colossal sums and weaponry provided - none of which will ever be paid back.

If I was a US taxpayer, I would be pissed that my taxes are funding a bullshit war that the USA wants no part of. Zelensky fucked right up and I am glad Trump/Vance called him out on it and booted his sorry ass out of the White House.

Zelensky can go crying now to his EU mates to see whether they will pony up more money and lives for a war Zelensky chose to ignore and now cannot win.

Merrymouse · 01/03/2025 11:44

Upstartled · 01/03/2025 11:35

We? Who is this we? Do you have barely adult boys ready to go in to war?

Show quote history

We - the UK.

Do we just allow Putin to move across Europe until our involvement becomes unavoidable?

I recognise that America cannot be expected to involve itself in Ukraine indefinitely - but Trump is doing far more than pulling out. He is allowing Putin to dictate terms. He isn't negotiating for peace. He trying to enforce a Russian victory, and taking commission.

TriathlonTriathlonTriathlon · 01/03/2025 11:44

BeckyAMumsnet · 01/03/2025 11:40

We've noticed an increasing number of occasions where users are accusing others of being bots or shills or engaging in misinformation simply because they express pro-Trump views (or, really, any political stance that differs from their own). We value robust debate and discussion, but personal attacks, accusations of bad faith, or dismissing users outright in this way stifles conversation and goes against our Talk guidelines.

We expect all posters to engage with the argument, not the individual. To be clear, disagreeing with someone is fine - attacking them personally is not.

Accusations that another user is a "bot", an agent of a foreign state or acting in bad faith just because of their political views are not helpful and will be removed. If you believe a post is factually incorrect, you're welcome to challenge it with counterarguments or reliable sources. Report anything you believe breaks our guidelines, and we'll take a look. Thanks.

I’m sorry number but I don’t agree your handling of disinformation/bots is ‘robust’.

Look at the recent child abuse photos left on here? We need to be able to have free speech on here, and that’s what I believe.

Clavinova · 01/03/2025 11:45

Alexandra2001 · 01/03/2025 10:43

I am now...

They ganged up on him... he sat their quietly, taking their shite, Trump even said he had given Javelins... BS, Biden did that...

Trump supports Putin... why is anyones guess, he is either insane/thick or the rumours that he is a Russian asset is true.

Show quote history

To be fair - Trump did sign off the sale of Javelins to Ukraine (something Obama had not done):

https://www.france24.com/en/20171223-usa-provide-ukraine-weaponry-javelin-anti-tank-missiles-fight-russian-backed-separatists
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2018/03/01/ukraine-officially-cleared-to-buy-javelin-weapons/
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-admin-approves-sale-anti-tank-weapons-ukraine/story?id=65989898

The Trump administration also imposed sanctions on the Nord Stream gas pipeline in December 2019 - Biden foolishly waived them in 2021:

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/us-sanctions-block-putins-pipeline/
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/biden-comes-under-fire-congress-after-waiving-sanctions-russian-gas-n1267975

Upstartled · 01/03/2025 11:45

Merrymouse · 01/03/2025 11:44

We - the UK.

Do we just allow Putin to move across Europe until our involvement becomes unavoidable?

I recognise that America cannot be expected to involve itself in Ukraine indefinitely - but Trump is doing far more than pulling out. He is allowing Putin to dictate terms. He isn't negotiating for peace. He trying to enforce a Russian victory, and taking commission.

Show quote history

Is that yes you do or no you don't have children of an age to fight in a war?

C152 · 01/03/2025 11:46

Never2many · 01/03/2025 10:00

Trump is unbalanced. But last night’s debacle was so clearly staged that I’m amazed no-one else can see it.

I don’t know what the answer is, and I certainly will never give Trump credit for anything. But the fact is that this is a war which Ukraine cannot win so where does it end.

We can’t keep throwing money at them, and I certainly don’t think we should send our troops in because to do that means that we are at war with Russia and nobody is going to agree with that.

I think if Zelensky could be encouraged to resign then a different leader may be able to bring about a more peaceful agreement.

Zelenski certainly isn’t the hero some make him out to be. The only reason why he is being given hero status is because he was in charge when the war broke out. But he is in fact a vile individual with a previous track record, as well as a current one in terms of how the Ukraine people are being treated, with young men being forced into conscription and threatened if they don’t. In that regard he’s no better than any of the rest of them, and his resignation can only be a good thing.

Russia is already at war with us. Deliberately crippling a nation's banking and hospital systems (which is what Russia did in the UK recently) is not the act of a friendly ally.

Zelenskky doesn't need to be "encouraged to resign". That would bring even greater instablity to the region, which is exactly what Putin wants. Nonetheless, Zelenskky has offered to resign in exchange for peace or Ukraine's membership of NATO.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/23/zelenskyy-refuses-trump-demand-to-give-500bn-of-ukraine-minerals-to-us

I don't see someone like Trump ever committing a selfless act like that.

I'd suggest some research on the many reasons why Zelenskyy is referred to as a hero. He is certainly not a vile individual. As for conscription - what on earth do you think happens when your country is invaded or your country is involved in a world war??? Britain introduced conscription in both WW1 and WW2, as did the USA and other nations. The US also implemented it during Korea and Vietnam.

Hancox432 · 01/03/2025 11:46

If Europe belived they could stand up to Russia alone the EU would be used as the security assurances. Unfortunately Europe knows the US support is needed. Telling how barely any leader has criticised Trump for yesterday.

Unfortunately the EU knows US support is needed and will tell Zelenskey to go back and appease Trump

Thingymajigii · 01/03/2025 11:46

@Donotpanicoknowpanic Have a listen to the Rest is Politics (with Rory Stewart and Alistair Campbell) They released an episode yesterday following the meeting. It will help you to understand why having Americas support is so important.

ZooAccountant · 01/03/2025 11:47

Wildflowers99 · 01/03/2025 11:37

We all need to accept we have become a country which is a life support machine for people with social ‘needs’. And therefore cash for anything outside of effectively social care and benefits has dwindled to virtually nothing. We can no longer afford to spend 40% of our cash on the NHS and benefits alone. I know I sound like a stuck record but if we managed to reduce DLA and PIP by half, we could increase our military expenditure by over half. That’s how bad things are. We can no longer afford to be a country full of ‘needs’ and also expect to have global standing and a prepared military.

Starmer badly needs to make these cuts, but he can’t because the public are so reliant that he knows it’s a recipe for electoral defeat.

It’s such a shame things have been allowed to reach this point (yes I blame the Tories)

Agree, and Europe has been lazy and not united. They spend more time faffing than getting the job done and have allowed this to happen. Too many polaticians lining their own pockets. Now we have to go with Trump, we have no alternatives.

Merrymouse · 01/03/2025 11:47

HelplessSoul · 01/03/2025 11:44

100% correct.

As I posted on another thread:

Zelensky is a dick. For months, he saw Russian troops amass on his border and refused to engage in talks to prevent the war - instead thinking his (invisble) NATO mates would back him. Did he think Putin put those troops there as a training exercise?

He has spaffed countless lives and money and munitions on this war and now wants other troops to die for his country. No sane leader would put their troops on the line for a war that was avoidable.

Like him or not Trump was right to call Zelensky out on this - and for Zelensky to try and play this out in the media was a fucking stupid move. And it was a disgrace that he attempted this on US soil, and in the Oval Office/White House.

Everyone would be up in arms if any world leader did the same to Zelensky in Kyiv. Its completely uncouth and unacceptable.

The USA should fuck him off, especially after the colossal sums and weaponry provided - none of which will ever be paid back.

If I was a US taxpayer, I would be pissed that my taxes are funding a bullshit war that the USA wants no part of. Zelensky fucked right up and I am glad Trump/Vance called him out on it and booted his sorry ass out of the White House.

Zelensky can go crying now to his EU mates to see whether they will pony up more money and lives for a war Zelensky chose to ignore and now cannot win.

Show quote history

"He has spaffed countless lives and money and munitions on this war and now wants other troops to die for his country. No sane leader would put their troops on the line for a war that was avoidable."

Avoidable? Russia invaded. I'm afraid I have to ask - are you on glue?

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 01/03/2025 11:47

OP, if Russia invaded the UK, which bits of our country would you be happy to hand over to keep the peace?

Would you be happy for the county where you live to become part of the Russian empire and for some or all of your family to live under Russian rule?

And what if Russia then decided to invade some additional countries? As your family would now be Russian, would you accept that your kids might be conscripted into the Russian army to support the further expansion of the Russian empire into other countries?

Because that's the compromise that you're asking the Ukrainians to make.

Anyone who believes that, if only Ukraine could just hand over a bit of land to appease Russia, everyone would live happily ever, after is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Zelensky is standing up for his people. All of his people. Trump and Vance are an utter disgrace, and the USA should be fucking ashamed of what it has become.

Igotjelly · 01/03/2025 11:47

TriathlonTriathlonTriathlon · 01/03/2025 11:44

I’m sorry number but I don’t agree your handling of disinformation/bots is ‘robust’.

Look at the recent child abuse photos left on here? We need to be able to have free speech on here, and that’s what I believe.

Show quote history

Agree 100%, Russian propaganda is allowed to run rife on Mumsnet these days and those calling it out are simply called ‘troll hunters’.

kistanbul · 01/03/2025 11:47

Surrender and occupation isn’t peace.

In any case, you’re describing a fantasy. Giving Putin a bit of what he wants and thinking that will be enough has been tried, it doesn’t work. He always wants more. He’s stated he wants Lithuania, Poland and so on. Are they also worth sacrificing?

it’s pretty clear he spent lockdown in a basement poring over old maps, coming up with his dumb theory about greater Russia and how everything would be great if if wasn’t for that dumb NATO. He’s not going to let it go.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 01/03/2025 11:48

Biscuitsnotcookies · 01/03/2025 10:36

Let’s not be black and white on this. It’s far too complex.
Everyone wants the war to end (for different reasons) to be fair to the US they are at least attempting to broker some kind of peace deal. It seems Europe are just standing by and doing absolutely nothing. Where is the European initiative??

Very well said, Biscuitsnotcookies, though TBF I wouldn't quite say the EU's doing nothing

Unfortunately what they're mainly doing is panicking and playing "Pick me! Pick me!" with Trump in the hope he'll go on paying and not pull out of NATO completely - probably because they too convinced themselves he'd never be elected and the money would keep rolling in for ever

A mistake, as things turned out ...

Alexandra2001 · 01/03/2025 11:48

Hancox432 · 01/03/2025 11:46

If Europe belived they could stand up to Russia alone the EU would be used as the security assurances. Unfortunately Europe knows the US support is needed. Telling how barely any leader has criticised Trump for yesterday.

Unfortunately the EU knows US support is needed and will tell Zelenskey to go back and appease Trump

Err whats with the EU? its a political/trade body only...

We stopped any chance of an EU army years ago.

ZooAccountant · 01/03/2025 11:48

TriathlonTriathlonTriathlon · 01/03/2025 11:43

You wait and see, he’ll go for some remote piece of land in a NATO country, sit back and watch NATO does nothing, and then what? It undermines article 5, and the whole idea of NATO.

I work in defence, so see extensive analysis.

Show quote history

Ok , so what do we do? Start WW3 without Americas support.

Clavinova · 01/03/2025 11:49

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2018/03/01/ukraine-officially-cleared-to-buy-javelin-weapons/

MumCanIHaveASnackPlease · 01/03/2025 11:49

BeckyAMumsnet · 01/03/2025 11:40

We've noticed an increasing number of occasions where users are accusing others of being bots or shills or engaging in misinformation simply because they express pro-Trump views (or, really, any political stance that differs from their own). We value robust debate and discussion, but personal attacks, accusations of bad faith, or dismissing users outright in this way stifles conversation and goes against our Talk guidelines.

We expect all posters to engage with the argument, not the individual. To be clear, disagreeing with someone is fine - attacking them personally is not.

Accusations that another user is a "bot", an agent of a foreign state or acting in bad faith just because of their political views are not helpful and will be removed. If you believe a post is factually incorrect, you're welcome to challenge it with counterarguments or reliable sources. Report anything you believe breaks our guidelines, and we'll take a look. Thanks.

Sorry but are we expected to believe that the same website that allowed CSA images to be plastered all over it has robust moderation for Russian bots? Give me a break.

MarvellousMarch · 01/03/2025 11:49

@TriathlonTriathlonTriathlon what's the rationale about touching nato when he cannot win in Ukraine agaisnt a fraction of full power.

The eu is definitely militarily weak without the USA but the resistance would be stronger than Ukraine and we have planes and nukes.

I cannot fathom why putin would want more.