To be horrible to my four year old?

[appleandcat]

My four year old is a complete pain at the moment.He argues with everything I say and I mean everything. It’s literally being argumentative for the sake of it. It’s very draining and to be honest a bit depressing having everything you say disagreed with (I’ll say something like ‘I’m just nipping up the stairs!’ and he’ll say hourchily ‘you’re NOT going up the stairs.’)

So - I lost it a few days ago and I’m not proud of it but I screamed my head off at him, told him he was making me miserable and that I hated spending time with him, no one would want to be his friend. Horrible words and I did apologise for them but the thing is that it worked and he stopped arguing with me and whining at me.

Now we’re back to ‘normal.’ I have read the books and I’ve tried the techniques and all go ignored. And I’m actually wondering if I need to be a hell of a lot harsher and maybe that roaring out is what he needs. It’s certainly what my parents would have done: but I grew up with no confidence and I obviously don’t want that!

He is fine at nursery. So no idea what’s going on with him.

Argue with a Four year old......
The teenage years will be interesting...Brace yourself @BeGoldHedgehog yes that's right sometimes I do, I'm being honest and a lot of people probably do the same and are too scared to say it because of all the judgement on here. I'm not perfect, sometimes I loose my cool and I'm learning new parenting skills everyday. Your post is coming across very judgy and presumptuous. You have no idea how frequently this happens and if it will affect my child. I also think that it's good for kids to see that they have pushed their parents too far sometimes and that whining and arguing isn't going to get them the results they want.

You might find the Emily Oster podcast in on ‘Discipline’ interesting.

Speaking as someone who has done the Dr Becky course and read the Phillipa Perry book (I guess these are the two main ‘gurus’ if you’re parenting in the UK in 2025) I felt that neither especially resonated with me and the podcast helped me appreciate why. While I completely disagree with the idea of smacking and very rarely get cross, I also dislike the highly empathetic, softly softly parenting from a script approach of Dr Becky et al (‘I hear that you’re angry right now’ etc) I prefer responding like an imperfect human and sometimes for me this means reacting in a way that’s a bit cross or that lets my child see my annoyance. It feels a bit taboo at the moment to parent in this way.

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Yes of course YABU to talk to a four-year-old like that. He's only little. Having said that, I understand from personal experience that toddlers and preschoolers can be extremely difficult and oppositional. They seem to know how to press alll your buttons and this is fairly typical behaviour. He's trying to find out what you willl put up with by arguing and pushing the boundaries. Be firm but kind while dealing with him and do not give in, either to his whingeing or your irritation.

This sounds really grating. We're all human and snap sometimes when we're stressed. I know there's some perfect parents who've never shouted at their kids but the majority have lost it at one time or another (and some kids are much harder work than others).

I would try the Ross Greene Plan B method or similar adapted for a 4yo.

I totally get this.

I hate (and cannot do) the scripted waffle of some of the gentle parenting movement. Too many words, too false sounding.

I would never hit or insult/demean and I very rarely shout as it just escalates everything. But I will be firm, I'll use short, simple instructions/explanations, I'll take things away if they're being used dangerously, I'll refuse a request if it's barked at me and I'll correct and lead by example as much as I can. I get frustrated but I take a breath or a step back. I'll ignore, distract, jolly along, bribe, praise, reward, remove him from a situation. Basically whatever makes the most sense I'm the moment. But the main themes are respect, kindness, treating each other how we want to be treated.

There's a whole world in between "oh darling do stop that please, oh you won't, ok then" and YOU ARE REALLY ANNOYING, WHY ARE YOU LIKE THIS I'VE HATED BEING WITH YOU TODAY, HOW DO YOU EXPECT TO HAVE FRIENDS WHEN YOU'RE LIKE THIS" etc.

This is helpful, I’ll listen to this. I really connect with Dr Becky stuff (especially DFK stuff!) and also feel it’s really important to express how I feel to my kids - for my sanity and also to show them that I am not a robot as that would be really weird. And always happy to be challenged with different ideas - thanks

You are asking if telling a 4 year old that you hate spending time with him is reasonable.

its not.

Next time he kicks off can you tell him to stop as he's being annoying, and that you'd much rather that you were all having fun, rather than arguing? Could you introduce him the phrase 'agree to disagree' so if he keeps saying that the hill isn't big, you let him know that you're not getting into an argument with him. We don't have to find everything our kids say interesting, and he does sound like he's being argumentative for the sake of it.

If he doesn't stop his annoying behaviour, set out a clear consequence if he continues.

It is a phase, and it does sound exhausting. I don't think you need to worry about how you'll manage your relationship as a teenager, it's so long away, he will change and grow, particularly with you teaching him reasonable behaviour.

I don't think you should beat yourself up too much over your loss of patience with him, you apologised, which is very important, and definately something I never got from my parents! You're his mum and his safe spacw, but also responsible for helping him navigate the world, and being argumentative is not a way to make friends.

I lose my temper with my kids, I do shout at them at times when they are playing up (they are 5 and 6) I’m not proud of this but I am human. I would never say horrible things to them though, saying he won’t have any friends and you don’t like spending time with him, well that’s just plain nasty. I hope you apologised and told him you were very wrong. Please don’t say things like that to a kid that could mess them up.

You sound like you are bordering on being an emotionally immature parent, and I and other mumsnet users know too well the damage that causes. Try reading around it and see whether that resonates with you.

He is FOUR. He does not have the capacity to do things to annoy you/be purposefully argumentative but you are choosing to be horrible to him. You will scar him for life. He deserves better. You wouldn't speak like that to another adult, so why do you speak like that to your son??? Disgusting.

Not sure if you're still reading this but I think you're getting an unnecessarily hard time here.
I'm a therapist and I spend a lot of time talking to people about their childhoods and I think a lot of previous posters are being melodramatic.
I think it's our jobs to teach our children a whole range of things about the world, life and ourselves. One of those things is that if you act like a dick, other people don't like it. I actually think we're letting our kids down if we give them the impression you can sail through life being a total pain in the arse with no consequences.

My 5 year olds the same normally followed by your horrible mum or I don’t like you I say stuff like that’s okay it’s not my job to be liked but it is my job to …protect you if he was told no for safety, feed you if it’s food, help you if I’m trying to help…

it is exhusting I’ve been in the bathroom crying many times but he’s 5 and I’m 35 and his brain isn’t actually built yet to regulate emotions so I know it’s not his job to regulate his and mine but rather try and learn how to act in social circumstances.

Kids are not all the same. Some do need stronger boundaries and consequences. Some will naturally try to fit in and please others, some not so much. There are lines you shouldn’t cross eg he should never feel that his safety or security with you is in question. But telling him off, even loudly and sharply, can be totally appropriate.

He should be prevented from ruining experiences for everyone else with clear strong instructions and direct consequences. He is young so very self centred and probably doesn’t realise that his arguing is unpleasant for others. Probably also doesn’t care. That’s not bad, it’s just how it is. Social skills and awareness take time. So tell him clearly: you have been arguing a lot and it is upsetting me / us. That’s enough. No more arguing or we will stop this activity / go home / remove your toy / whatever. Then follow through. Ideally the consequence is immediate and related to the thing he’s ruining. Demonstrate that if he behaves in a way that makes an activity unpleasant for others then he loses that same activity. If he has siblings this is obviously more difficult unless you also have another adult there. When he is calm, try to talk to him about losing the activity. That was hard, wasn’t it? Be empathetic. I know you were upset. What do you think we could do differently next time? If he complains only about the punishment then reinforce: but you were arguing and making it not very fun, it’s important to play nicely. If he’s getting agitated then leave it be. The aim is to reinforce the message and the cause / effect of it when he’s calm and receptive, if he’s not able to do that then just keep demonstrating the boundary.

He might have a strong leadership streak in his personality or be feeling a lack of autonomy. More challenges and responsibilities might help. But also, if he does have this personality that wants to be in charge and have things his way all the time then he needs to learn how to control it, and that will come by you strongly enforcing boundaries and consequences if he’s unpleasant. Similar to how really competitive kids benefit from sports as a positive outlet for that and a chance to learn how to lose, but might have to also learn to control the impulse to compete when they're home with siblings.

More opportunities to take charge in a positive way (and support for when it doesn’t go to plan for him) and less tolerance of him trying to assert himself inappropriately.

Everyone has a breaking point and it’s not your fault you reached yours. Sometimes it’s not wrong to point out the truth. I haven’t enjoyed our day together due to your moaning is true and children do need to realise adults are not servants sent to serve them. They have feelings too.

ideally don’t shout however that message is ok to give. In future I’d say things like

”we’ve been here an hour now and you are moaning. If you carry on we will go home’ and follow through, don’t making going home fun or no TV

or next time he gives a sullen answer to no I don’t want and Ice cream, do as you did and say on no problem. However when he then states he wants one and kicks off stick to your guns. He cannot treat you like that and sullen answers will be treated as such. No ice cream. He said he didn’t want one. I bet it’s the last time he gives a sullen answer for that.

Yes this.

Berate the behaviour but to make cutting remarks about him as a person is not right.

Most parents with adult kids have lost it with them at some point in their lives. And then immediately felt bloody terrible. If you think 4 years olds can be a PITA, try teenagers!

Going forward, you obvs shouldn’t scream or say nasty things to get him to amend his behaviour. But you can be very firm, preferably with humour. Like, the example with the ice cream: “Blimey, make your mind up. It you carry on, you’re deffo not getting one”. The key is that you’re firmly in control, not him. Kids need boundaries or they drive themselves crazy as well as you.

Read or listen to 'There's still no such thing as naughty' by Kate Silverton. Don't buy into a lot of parenting books but this is a game changer for me.
Have slightly older primary aged children who sometimes struggle to manage. Just makes so much sense and easy to implement ideas from day 1!

I've lost my rage and shouted, quite a few times tbh. It would stop my son in his tracks and he'd suddenly realised he had gone too far, I had your sons behaviour and then biting me, hitting me, trying to snap my false nails off, the whole deal. Thankfully he isn't like that now and has had a lot of help, but sometimes a shout was the only thing that actually did anything, trying to talk rationally and calmly to someone who was biting your skin as hard as possible didn't always work 😅

100%

My oldest goes through sporadic phases of awful behaviour and no amount of guiding, modelling, reminding, choices, loss of privileges, time-out or anything works or ever has, nothing seems to change the behaviour till I get obviously upset or DH gets angry. She pushes it and pushes harder till she gets the reaction.

There are many different schools of parenting, from the gentle end right through to the more authoritarian. Everyone will have their own idea of how to best parent, and they're typically quite cynical about the opposite end of the parenting spectrum.

That's all fine. We all know our DC and do what we think is best. My two DC respond REALLY badly to raised voices, always have (both SEN and get really anxious). We don't ever have raised voices in this house because if we do, it's a fucking disaster all round. However, I have friends who are sterner with their DC and that works for them. Neither of us is wrong.

However, and this is the kicker, what you said is " I screamed my head off at him, told him he was making me miserable and that I hated spending time with him, no one would want to be his friend"

Aside from the fact of actually "screaming" at a 4 year old, such personal insults aren't ever acceptable. And your OP questions whether you should do this again because it worked. I find that really shocking. To lose your temper in such an awful way is one thing, but to be contemplating repeating such horrible words again is quite another.

Ignoring what you actually said, the thing is with shouting, yes, it may well be effective now as there's a shock value. But children get very quickly used to an adult who shouts, and it loses its impact. How are you going to manage your temper and your relationship with your DS when "screaming" at him doesn't have an effect any more?

This is why you need to actually parent, not just raise your voice. As he gets older he'll be less bothered about you yelling at him, he might even find it funny to wind you up.

I think you need to focus on coping techniques for you, this will help you stay calm when he's pushing your buttons. I'm not suggesting that you never get annoyed but you need to be in control of your temper and your emotions rather just screaming personal insults at a nursery-age child.

I totally agree. It’s just a generally good lesson that when you get angry not to use sweeping generalisations, call people names or make someone responsible for how you feel.

Avoid the “you always” or “you never”. Don’t name call as it’s biting. Tell a kid they are responsible for your feelings.

Yeah we are human and get upset. And OP I think sometimes kids need to be called out when out inof and learn boundaries including their behaviour. This softly softly approach creates entitled children who have no resilience. You were right to call out his behaviour. We shouldn’t avoid negative or boundary type discussions with children. And guess what - it stopped.

I think we enable this kind of behaviour in children when we don’t set them straight. That’s our job as parents to keep them in the lines - but nudge them back more often and don’t whack them back (metaphorically) hard.

My eldest son was difficult when he was younger, but he was a great teenager and is a great adult. Don’t decide at just four that you and he are never going to get along! That’s a disaster waiting to happen. Stop taking his silly nonsense so personally. Stick some ear buds in or something when he ramps it up or bring some humour in to it (it can be done).