To be horrible to my four year old?

[appleandcat]

My four year old is a complete pain at the moment.He argues with everything I say and I mean everything. It’s literally being argumentative for the sake of it. It’s very draining and to be honest a bit depressing having everything you say disagreed with (I’ll say something like ‘I’m just nipping up the stairs!’ and he’ll say hourchily ‘you’re NOT going up the stairs.’)

So - I lost it a few days ago and I’m not proud of it but I screamed my head off at him, told him he was making me miserable and that I hated spending time with him, no one would want to be his friend. Horrible words and I did apologise for them but the thing is that it worked and he stopped arguing with me and whining at me.

Now we’re back to ‘normal.’ I have read the books and I’ve tried the techniques and all go ignored. And I’m actually wondering if I need to be a hell of a lot harsher and maybe that roaring out is what he needs. It’s certainly what my parents would have done: but I grew up with no confidence and I obviously don’t want that!

He is fine at nursery. So no idea what’s going on with him.

Thing is, if the OP owns it and explains that it wasn’t about him; she was feeling stressed and she said something hurtful and she is really sorry and is going to work really hard in the future to do things differently, then this can actually build a stronger connection. There is a great podcast by Dr Becky (yes I am obsessed!) about the most important parenting strategy; it’s all about repair.

and also if the OP feels shamed by the messages on here then she will (understandably) retreat; however with understanding and empathy she is much more likely to remain curious and pick up some hopefully helpful strategies to help her cope next time.

And also in these moments when we are “triggered” it’s really hard not to respond as our parents did to us as kids. I sometimes hear my mum’s voice in my head! A great book (if you have any time to read @appleandcat ) is Phillipa Perry’s ‘the book you wish your parents had read and your children will be pleased you did”, it helped me loads

What you said wasn't an issue, it's the way you said it.

Next time just calmly tell him, 'Mummy doesn't like this type of behavior, and I don't want to be spoken to like that so I'm going away into x room. When you're ready to be kind you can come and find me'.

If he follows you and bothers you, then send him to the naughty step/chair. Tell him he needs to sit there for 4 minutes and explain what negative behavior he's in there for. When the four minutes are up have him apologize. If he won't, he stays there until he does.

If he says he doesn't want an ice cream and changes his mind, that's too bad. He needs to learn to mean what he says. Sit there and enjoy your ice cream and ignore his tantrum. Maybe even make a comment about how delicious it is. If he complains, explain one time that he said he didn't want it and he doesn't get to change his mind. Then refuse to answer any more complaints. Just say 'I've already answered that question' and continue to enjoy your ice cream, alternate with 'Mummy isn't going to argue, I've made my decision.'

Never, never, never let it show if you're losing control because of his behavior. You can tell him you're feeling frustrated and you're going to take a moment to breathe and get under control. But never snap and yell at him, because he's won. Never give in to his demands. That'll only fuel this behavior.

Above all, acknowledge the good behavior. Don't miss an opportunity to praise him for that, and comment how you like to be around him when he's acting this way.

It sounds like you’re minimising a bit. You didn’t just get annoyed (which would be understandable) you absolutely assassinated his character and then seemingly wondered if you should do it more often. And you keep saying well it worked. We all make mistakes, but I think you have to recognise it and it doesn’t sound like you really get it. I don’t think it’s even remotely ok to say those sorts of things and I think you need to make an effort to counter them as well - eg make a fuss when he demonstrates being a good friend.

assuming you’ve been a bit flippant with your posts and actually this is just a plea for help, I think you need to think about why you’re reacting to him (are you overstimulated, do you feel disrespected etc) and tackle that within yourself.
then also look at why he might be doing it.
is there a simple fix too eg that’s a duck- no it’s not.
just don’t tell him it’s a duck. Ask him what he can see instead.

And I'll also add, don't say 'You're a bad boy', say 'You are having some bad behavior right now'.

Sounds like he takes after you, tbh.

I don't blame you to be honest. My DD was very similar at 4 and I've waited for her to 'grow out of it' for 4 more years. She's an absolute pain now at 8 and lives for an argument. Sometimes kids need to see that their behaviour has consequences.

I screamed my head off at him, told him he was making me miserable and that I hated spending time with him, no one would want to be his friend

😲😲😥😥😥😥😥

So from this thread I have learnt I’m not a gentle parent! I also have a four year old and don’t think what you said was especially terrible. Stating that ‘If you behave poorly, nobody will want to be your friend’ seems pretty reasonable to me! It’s accurate! You’ve also been teaching him about natural consequences - push too far and mummy will get cross and say ‘you’re making me miserable’ and that’s really not nice to hear. So he’s now being more considerate. I agree with other PPs that his behaviour is completely normal and developmentally appropriate by the way.

I’m quite strict with my four year old in a way I wouldn’t have been when he was 2 or 3 and didn’t understand right from wrong or rudeness as a concept. He gets it now and I think it’s my job to hold him accountable, with plenty of love and support, of course. But he is old enough to take some responsibility for his actions.

Shouting isn't the problem. What you said to him, is the problem. Even if you said it softly, it will still have had an impact. I'm not part of the 'gentle' lobby, or a perfect parent, far from it, but I am a counsellor. I'm sure that he will remember the good things/fun times you have together but those things we say in anger or without thinking, often stay with them for longer. Many adults can recall painful hurtful childhood comments from parents.

All of this

I think this is a really interesting point about dynamics from past relationships. It does sound like his behaviour is tapping into something from the past which may be why it is so infuriating. As this poster suggests, your son’s behaviour is maybe reminding you of how you felt in the relationship with your brother? You might want to unpick this with support of a therapist (if time and money) or again Philippa Perry’s book helps with this stuff.

It seems as if maybe the arguing with him has given him too much perceived power. Eg you say 'I'm just nipping upstairs' then he moans about that - you don't have to argue with him, just get on with your day. Go up and do whatever it was you had planned.
You've got into a negative loop so need to just move on from the shit stuff while positively reinforcing the good stuff. Not angrily move on, like on a huff, but just neutrally.
Not sure if the ice cream was van or freezer, but if it is van ice cream.
I'm getting ice cream. Would you like ice cream? There won't be ice cream later, I'm only queueing one time.
Then you either get him ice cream or don't, and ignore any whinging. If he whinges and you go back, he's getting a reward for the whinging. He won't reject ice cream more than 3 times (assuming he likes ice cream, I had an odd child who didn't!)

I know the other example was your brother, but you can make normal nice stuff a reward. Once you've sat nicely through my tape, then it is your turn to choose. If you xyz then it won't be your turn.
Constant rewarding of the behaviour you want to see (and your attention is a big reward to a 4 year old along with choice / control).
Good luck!

It's not ideal but it sounds like he's been deliberately pushing buttons.

I think you need to go nuclear on this behaviour. Correct it every time. "You're NOT going upstairs!" "Who do you think you are speaking to? Apologise for that rude tone of voice or we will not be going out/ watching a movie/ whatever treat you have planned," and then follow through with it. "I don't want an ice-cream!" Fine. No backsies, the offer of an ice-cream is now off the table. Make him learn that being rude and argumentative leads to losing out, and tantrum-ing about the consequences gets him nowhere.

It sounds extreme and I wouldn't do anything like that for occasional attitude but if it's as constant as you say, it needs nipping in the bud.

Give him lots of positive attention

look up low demand parenting

If this is how you behave with your 4 year old, when they reach 14 you won't have a relationship left. They will hate you. The relationship will be horrendous and by adulthood you'll be NC

You need to turn this around NOW. Get professional help and never speak to your child like that again. If you feel anger bubbling, remove yourself, calm down and come back.

Dd was like that at 4- the old word would be wilful and rebellious and reckless. She did it in public in France once, running away in defiance and putting herself in considerable danger, from which she was hauled back by an elderly French woman who told her off in French so loudly and angrily she behaved for the rest of the holiday. And I thought, 'thank you, thank you, thank you," because it worked. And I can't tell you how often afterwards I wished that woman would reappear and do what I could not.

Is he an only child?

My kid just has me to whine at, beg, repeat, act up…

I think when there’s more children, they can speak to each other at their own level.

To an adult, everything you describe is annoying!

However, you need to recognise four year old behaviour,

My DH takes our DS too personally & shouts at him.

It doesn’t work, actually. Makes him worse!

And, if you find it does work… Well, do you want that?

My 3 yo is very difficult with tantrums and whining (always has been tbh, he started having proper tantrums before he could even walk...). It's very similar to what you're describing and I can understand how overwhelming it can be after a full day (/week/year) of it.

Not saying that it will work for you, but if he's like this we send him to his room. He's got his conforter there, books, toys, etc, and until recently his dummy. (And we still have a camera in his room so can check on him).
Most of the time, it helps him calm down much quicker than anything else. He knows (and we always tell him) that he can come down when he feels better and is ready to be with us. Sometimes he comes down after 10 min, other times he stays much longer playing or reading his book.

Is his ‘monologue’ actually a response to you engaging him? So are you saying things like “what a lovely day, shall we have ice cream, oooh a duck”. I mean it’s not wrong if you are, that’s what most parents would do. But what happens if you take him on a walk or just sit on a bench and don’t talk to him, Maybe he’s feeling pressure to perform?

Exactly.

Its fine to tell your child off or pull them up on their behaviour. It's fine to 'lose it' once in while, as in shout. It's NOT fine to be emotionally abusive or scream your head off.

Oh OK, cause that makes it so much better then 🙄

From what you wrote it does sound like a personal attack, but I think the frustration is understandable.

Maybe a better way to frame it is to talk about the behaviour. Because it's totally fine to explain to a small child that their behaviour has consequences, and sometimes they need telling because they're small and their brains are a long way from fully developed.

I can't see a problem with telling a toddler that if they keep hitting or biting the other children won't want to play with them. They won't. And then you talk about how to deal with feelings.

I also think it's ok to tell a 4 year old that their behaviour is making things difficult/unenjoyable and it makes you not want to take them to the farm park or whatever. In a calm moment, talk about what would have been a better way of dealing with frustrations. They do need to know that you have feelings too.

But also yes it's hard and don't beat yourself up about shouting once. You're clearly trying incredibly hard to do the right thing.

Please look into doing some parenting courses

I actually think shock and awe has a place. He needs to know his behaviour is not acceptable. It sounds like you have tried many ways to correct it but nothing has worked. Kids need boundaries and need to know where those are. He's just discovered a hard boundary and now knows to back off a bit. It doesn't mean he can never disagree again. It does mean he cannot disagree just for the sake of it.

This will sound harsh, but it doesn’t sound like you like him very much. Your tone and words are harsh and I feel sorry for him to be honest.

If he has very unusual behaviour, perhaps see a pediatrician, do some classes, etc. See what resources are available.

At the moment it sounds like you are writing him off as being problematic long term, which is very sad. It is also understandable it is difficult sometimes, and I hope you can find the support and help you need!