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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be horrible to my four year old?

305 replies

appleandcat · 23/02/2025 16:37

My four year old is a complete pain at the moment.He argues with everything I say and I mean everything. It’s literally being argumentative for the sake of it. It’s very draining and to be honest a bit depressing having everything you say disagreed with (I’ll say something like ‘I’m just nipping up the stairs!’ and he’ll say hourchily ‘you’re NOT going up the stairs.’)

So - I lost it a few days ago and I’m not proud of it but I screamed my head off at him, told him he was making me miserable and that I hated spending time with him, no one would want to be his friend. Horrible words and I did apologise for them but the thing is that it worked and he stopped arguing with me and whining at me.

Now we’re back to ‘normal.’ I have read the books and I’ve tried the techniques and all go ignored. And I’m actually wondering if I need to be a hell of a lot harsher and maybe that roaring out is what he needs. It’s certainly what my parents would have done: but I grew up with no confidence and I obviously don’t want that!

He is fine at nursery. So no idea what’s going on with him.

OP posts:
Rainingalldayonmyhead · 23/02/2025 20:40

NinaGeiger · 23/02/2025 20:14

Not sure if you're still reading this but I think you're getting an unnecessarily hard time here.
I'm a therapist and I spend a lot of time talking to people about their childhoods and I think a lot of previous posters are being melodramatic.
I think it's our jobs to teach our children a whole range of things about the world, life and ourselves. One of those things is that if you act like a dick, other people don't like it. I actually think we're letting our kids down if we give them the impression you can sail through life being a total pain in the arse with no consequences.

Best response ever and from someone qualified. Listen to this 100%.

SpidersAreShitheads · 23/02/2025 20:41

NinaGeiger · 23/02/2025 20:14

Not sure if you're still reading this but I think you're getting an unnecessarily hard time here.
I'm a therapist and I spend a lot of time talking to people about their childhoods and I think a lot of previous posters are being melodramatic.
I think it's our jobs to teach our children a whole range of things about the world, life and ourselves. One of those things is that if you act like a dick, other people don't like it. I actually think we're letting our kids down if we give them the impression you can sail through life being a total pain in the arse with no consequences.

Consequences for "acting like a dick" is one thing, but telling a 4 year old that you hate spending time with them and no one will ever want to be their friend is quite another.

Pretty shocked that a therapist would consider this to be appropriate parenting for a child of any age, let alone a 4 yr old.

Springadorable · 23/02/2025 20:42

Rainingalldayonmyhead · 23/02/2025 20:40

Best response ever and from someone qualified. Listen to this 100%.

They are just another randomer on the internet...

Frenchbluesea · 23/02/2025 20:44

WhatTheMoo · 23/02/2025 17:38

There’s nothing wrong with telling a child nobody will want to be their friend because of BEHAVIOUR. That’s very different than telling a child that nobody want to the their friend. People are on here so fucking soft and weak. No wonder modern children are so useless at everything.

Modern children aren’t useless at everything. Parents who don’t abuse, bully, threaten or intimidate children are not soft and weak. Parents who do, however, are just fucking awful. So are people who call children useless at everything

Nanny0gg · 23/02/2025 20:45

JLou08 · 23/02/2025 17:20

What an over reaction. A 4 year old will grow out of annoying behaviour and will learn to manage their emotion from good role models and opportunities to socialise over time. They won't need punishment and shouting at 4 years old to prevent them becoming a hooligan.

No, that's not necessarily true

Sweetpea1532 · 23/02/2025 20:45

I have 3 adult children and wish this book were available when they were younger. I now have a very stubborn, opinionated 5 yr old DGS. He is also amazing, sympathetic, and loves being with people. I found this book to help me communicate with him because I am speechless at some of the things he comes out with.

To be horrible to my four year old?
outofbattery · 23/02/2025 20:50

This sounds really exhausting OP, solidarity. I find parenting exhausting.

I'm constantly having to remind myself to take deep breaths, step out of the room, not say the thought that's in my head, remember the books I've read and the videos I've watched, try being 'fun', get down to their level, make eye contact, repeat myself, act super calm when inside I'm raging, and then after doing that over and over and over again and feeling like it's getting me nowhere. There are times where all of that on top of a bad day at work, or had three unexpected solo parenting week due to a family emergency, or a few nights bad sleep, or hormones or any combination of the above tip me over the edge and I end up shouting.

The stinger? Shouting works. I don't want them to have a mean shouty mum, I want the calm, controlled, fun mum to be effective. It annoys the hell out of me that shouting is SO effective when I'm trying my damndest to avoid it at all costs. But at the same time I don't want children who rule the roost and ignore rules/requests, so am trying to lay down boundaries. Then when you come on a forum like this and admit that you shouted you're often greeted with a firing squad. It's blooming tough!!

Today I sat my children down and said I really needed them to listen when I say things because I don't want to be a shouty mummy, so can we be a team and I'll keep trying my best and they could try their best to listen. My 3 year old said 'no, I like it when you're mean so I don't want to listen'. What on earth do you do with that?! I explained I don't like being cross and am trying really hard not to be so could she help me out and she shrugged in a way that said 'that sounds like a you problem'...send help! 😅

So, I have no advice. I feel like I've read a hundred books, I've been to therapy about my anger, I spent countless hours watching parenting videos on socials looking for inspiration. I've no idea how to be better than I am being, feel like I'm trying my absolute best. I still shout. And sometimes it's hard not to think/feel exactly what you've said to your kid that they're making you this way because I sure wasn't ever frustrated to the same level before I was a parent. It's hard!

LawrenceSMarlowforPresident · 23/02/2025 20:51

It's depressing to see so many people say that it's fine to scream cruel things at a 4-year-old. It doesn't matter that the child was whining or contradicting his mother, it doesn't matter how often he has done so. It is never O.K. for a parent to scream abusively at a child. Full stop. Anyone who has done that and tries to find excuses or blame the child ("If you hadn't done XYZ, I wouldn't have screamed at you") needs to take a long hard look at how they are raising their children.

Of course, it's fine for a parent to expect appropriate behaviour (though I think a lot of the examples the OP has given sound pretty typical for a 4-year-old, though no less annoying for that). It's also fine for a parent to demonstrate that a child's behaviour can affect other people or to have a tone of voice that lets a child know he/she has gone too far. But that is leagues away from what the OP has done.

Rainingalldayonmyhead · 23/02/2025 20:53

Springadorable · 23/02/2025 20:42

They are just another randomer on the internet...

Like we all are but if they are a qualified therapist then I think they may know a little bit more in this area.

Haveyouanyjam · 23/02/2025 20:54

Agree with others that it’s hard and we will all lose our patience sometimes but that the unkind language is what is really damaging and needs to not be repeated.

I have had real moments with my DSS who is 10 as he is so defiant and argumentative and was raised by an emotionally abusive parent for 6 years so can be deeply cruel and unkind with his words. He does not respond to gentle parenting but does respond to lots of praise.

I bring him up because I do find it hard to understand why he gets so worked up when my 3.5yo says something that is blatantly untrue (but isn’t unkind or saying he has done something) and I would say the same to you. Why does it matter if they disagree with everything? You know you’re right? I remember working in a mental health hospital with some people who had persistent delusions and one believed that he could remember being in the womb. I told him that wasn’t possible, he insisted and I remembered that he also thinks he’s a robot. Very similar with toddlers, they don’t understand science, so why would they trust that’s what is right? Who cares if she says the sky is green when you know it’s not? She’s just trying to find some control in the world.

My advice to him, if she says something and he disagrees, and she insists, is to just say ‘okay’. Same advice to you.

If he says he doesn’t want ice cream ‘okay’ if he then screams he does, you say ‘I won’t be giving you ice cream if you are going to speak to me like that, shall we try that again?’

It’s hard. I’m sure you haven’t permanently damaged your child with this but the tendency to say unkind things in anger needs to go. Practice okay. It helps.

BeGoldHedgehog · 23/02/2025 20:56

EdithBond · 23/02/2025 20:30

Most parents with adult kids have lost it with them at some point in their lives. And then immediately felt bloody terrible. If you think 4 years olds can be a PITA, try teenagers!

Going forward, you obvs shouldn’t scream or say nasty things to get him to amend his behaviour. But you can be very firm, preferably with humour. Like, the example with the ice cream: “Blimey, make your mind up. It you carry on, you’re deffo not getting one”. The key is that you’re firmly in control, not him. Kids need boundaries or they drive themselves crazy as well as you.

Yes that's what I was saying.. when mine were difficult I'd laugh and say its opposite day and they actually mean they love broccoli/getting in the bath/ etc

BeGoldHedgehog · 23/02/2025 20:58

wearyourpinkglove · 23/02/2025 19:40

Argue with a Four year old......
The teenage years will be interesting...Brace yourself @BeGoldHedgehog yes that's right sometimes I do, I'm being honest and a lot of people probably do the same and are too scared to say it because of all the judgement on here. I'm not perfect, sometimes I loose my cool and I'm learning new parenting skills everyday. Your post is coming across very judgy and presumptuous. You have no idea how frequently this happens and if it will affect my child. I also think that it's good for kids to see that they have pushed their parents too far sometimes and that whining and arguing isn't going to get them the results they want.

Trust me, my husband has lost it with teen DS , even i was scared. But he knows lovely easy going dad has limits
But at 4... you don't need to do that

Sid077 · 23/02/2025 20:59

You need a break or someone to run interference with the non stop onslaught of contrariness. It’s tough going I recommend introducing quiet time if not already in place and not taking things so personally.

You know it wasn’t your finest parenting moment and to some degree we all have been there, I’m surprised at the amount of judgement. Move on and try not to respond to every bit of chat from child, tuning out the negative behaviour is supported by time away to recharge whether that’s 20 mins for a coffee alone or an afternoon off. Good luck.

HolyPeaches · 23/02/2025 21:00

NinaGeiger · 23/02/2025 20:14

Not sure if you're still reading this but I think you're getting an unnecessarily hard time here.
I'm a therapist and I spend a lot of time talking to people about their childhoods and I think a lot of previous posters are being melodramatic.
I think it's our jobs to teach our children a whole range of things about the world, life and ourselves. One of those things is that if you act like a dick, other people don't like it. I actually think we're letting our kids down if we give them the impression you can sail through life being a total pain in the arse with no consequences.

I’m not sure in this scenario that the OP’s FOUR year old child was “acting like a dick” purposely that deserved to be screamed at 🙄

Dramatic · 23/02/2025 21:25

To all those saying "wait til he's a teenager" I've got to disagree, I have three teenagers and they are all infinitely easier to get along with and easier to parent now than when they were little. I also happen to have a 4 year old currently and she is more demanding and difficult than the older three put together. So there is no guarantee that things will get worse, they often get better and easier.

BertieBotts · 23/02/2025 21:25

appleandcat · 23/02/2025 17:14

I don’t think I will cope with him as a teenager. I’m already worried the relationship is irrevocably damaged.

OP - I felt like this when DS1 was four. He was like this. It was relentless.

He is now 16 and totally lovely. Honestly the teen years have been a complete breeze (so far - touch wood!) I don't know what happened to make it better. I threw lots of parenting at it - some good, some terrible! Maybe some of the good stuff just took longer to work. Maybe he just grew up. I know I spent a lot of time in between age 4 and the teenage years worrying about our relationship and I wish I had had better tools, and known that he wasn't a horrible person and neither was I.

DS2 is very similar and is 6 now. He still argues a lot but we are better at dealing with it although honestly we aren't perfect and do sometimes snap (something like "Stop arguing!")

Both DS1 and DS2 have been diagnosed with ADHD which is probably what makes their behaviour so intense. Of course I'm not saying your DS has ADHD - speak to GP/HV if concerned obv, though 4 might be too young to diagnose, but what I'm saying is that this behaviour is intense, outside the norm, and so you might need parenting techniques which are a bit more "robust" than the usual stuff if that makes sense.

It is unlikely to be your fault.

Most helpful things IME (happy to talk more if you want to):

Diffuse with humour or OTT reaction or even just agree ("NO Mummy the sky is GREEN!!" "Oh really? I didn't know that! I've never seen a green sky!") rather than taking seriously. DO NOT engage in the argument in good faith. They are baiting you for sport, not because they really think they are right. Don't worry. In the moment it feels really important to MAKE them see they are wrong. It's almost never that urgent. Usually when they calm down they have totally forgotten or they are happy to discuss sensibly.

Learning to spot the signs that he's in a low-level wound up mood before they get to the argumentative little toad state. Some children with intense behaviours have difficulty recognising their inner body sensations (hunger, hot/cold, needing toilet etc) and then they will get all uncomfortable but not recognise why. Then they'll get all fidgety, floppy, whiny, deliberately annoy everyone for attention etc. Running through a little checklist to offer them a snack, drink, remind to go to toilet (without it being you telling them to do it because it has to be their idea 🙄), getting everyone outside, or, if I'm feeling patient and regulated enough myself then I will make myself physically closer and/or give some focused attention/play - this almost always helps.

NB "being regulated" does not mean you are a superhuman who just blissfully ignores all infuriating child behaviour. That is not a thing. That is an influencer guilt farm to make you buy an overpriced course which will probably solve neither the behaviour, nor your feelings about it. Actual regulation is much more complex but if you want to learn more about it I would recommend Mona Delahooke, Robyn Gobbel's Big Baffling Behaviours (book not podcast), Dan Siegel's "Upstairs vs Downstairs brain" concept, and a book "When Your Kids Push Your Buttons" (which is only 99p on Kindle) - that last one doesn't really explain regulation but does help you get less triggered.

Side note - underrated parenting hack of the century is to get "try for a poo for 5 mins" into your bedtime routine. I cannot explain how much difference this makes if you have a child who frequently ignores their need to poo for days on end.

If you're going to do reward/punishment stuff then it most likely needs to be decided on in advance and structured so that it can be consistent and predictable. They will still argue that it's not fair the first time you enforce it, but as they get used to it you get less of that. There is a good free course on Coursera called The ABCs of Everyday Parenting which teaches this really well. It's also leaned on heavily in the book "How not to murder your ADHD kid" which is useful if ADHD is suspected (and if the title matches your sense of humour - avoid if not.) We have had some success with essentially dividing time up into different slots and then making some highly prized privilege (generally, screen time kind of thing but you can also do a novel reward like stickers, points leading to a prize, money) contingent on a behaviour or lack of certain behaviours. And yes, it's not an intrinsic or natural consequence but sometimes an extrinsic motivator over a short period of time can really help target specific behaviours. And no your child won't be reliant on it for life if you use it in this way.

We also talked about feelings a lot. That is supposed to help teach emotional regulation. You don't need to do it excessively in the moment (they will only disagree anyway Grin). The original book How To Talk is still good for this actually, or you can look at emotion coaching.

Do model apologising when you've calmed down if you feel ready to do that. Don't force out an apology if you don't, but don't stonewall as a punishment - it's OK to let him know you need space. Don't worry about exploding every so often. It's good for children to see that you are also human and you have feelings. You don't have to be perfect all the time.

CarterBeatsTheDevil · 23/02/2025 21:34

I don't see how anyone can say anything to posts like this other than "I have felt that way with my four year old so I get it" or "I haven't felt that way with my four year old and I don't get it".

I have never felt that way with my kid and never said anything like that to her, but I have no idea whether she and he are in any way similar or what sort of day you were having when you said it.

TwirlyPineapple · 23/02/2025 21:42

What the actual fuck. It's one thing to lose it like that and feel bad about it afterwards. Not good at all, but it happens It's entirely another to try and convince yourself that actually you did a good thing and should have been harsher.

Are you that horrible to other people in your life? Your perception of how to treat people you love is incredibly warped if you think personal insults designed to hurt people's feelings is the answer to be being angry or upset with someone. If you're going to "have it out" with someone, you argue about the matter at hand, not low blows that make them feel unloved.

Franjipanl8r · 23/02/2025 21:46

If you resort to shouting now it might work for a few years, but you’ll have one hell of an aggressive shouty teenager to deal with later on! You get back what you put in and the results aren’t instant. We had years and years of emotional tantrums with our eldest and the endless patience and kindness and listening almost broke us! But a few years later she’s the sweetest loveliest kindest girl.

Keep reading the parenting books and trying to find tools that work to keep your cool. Shouting might have worked now, but belittling your child is going to have some awful long term consequences.

Numberfish · 23/02/2025 21:55

category12 · 23/02/2025 18:23

No, it was infrequent. Negativity bias is a Thing.

It certainly is on this thread!

MrsSunshine2b · 23/02/2025 21:57

TwirlyPineapple · 23/02/2025 21:42

What the actual fuck. It's one thing to lose it like that and feel bad about it afterwards. Not good at all, but it happens It's entirely another to try and convince yourself that actually you did a good thing and should have been harsher.

Are you that horrible to other people in your life? Your perception of how to treat people you love is incredibly warped if you think personal insults designed to hurt people's feelings is the answer to be being angry or upset with someone. If you're going to "have it out" with someone, you argue about the matter at hand, not low blows that make them feel unloved.

My 4yo is actually quite lovely for her age, but there is no way anyone would put up with 4yo behaviour from an adult.

Having a screaming fit because they dropped a lolly on the floor. Shouting over the top of you. Watching you spend over an hour cooking a meal and then refusing to taste it. "Borrowing" things you specifically asked them not to touch, then losing or breaking them. 4yos are egocentric megalomaniacs if you allow them to be.

If an adult treated me how my 4yo treats me, I'd be more than horrible to them, and the chances are that they wouldn't have any friends. That's why as parents, our job is not to make children feel like they are wonderful and perfect at all times, it is our job to teach them how to be functional adults who do not perpetually piss off everyone around them.

wearyourpinkglove · 23/02/2025 22:05

@BeGoldHedgehog I didn't mention "scaring" my four year old. I don't think the OP did either (correct me if I'm wrong). I just argue back with my four year when she argues sometimes eg about the sky not being blue. She is so argumentative about everything and it gets to me ocassionally. Yes it is immature of me but it's not going to traumatise her I'm sure. All I'm saying is it's normal to lose your cool sometimes when kids push your buttons and sometimes kids need to know when you are annoyed. And parents need to stop being so judgy of others when they lose their cool occasionally.

BleedingMeDry · 23/02/2025 22:15

You’re the adult. I bet your kid will never forget how you made him feel. Well done. He obeyed out of shock and grief that his mother said those things. Expect to hear his feelings about his self-esteem a few months down the line, or a decade or two if he even still talks to you.

paradisecityx · 23/02/2025 22:27

@MrsSunshine2b agreed. May be harsh but we have to mould these children into what will one day be an adult who has to navigate the world. With the way parenting is at the moment we'll have a generation of out of control adults who take zero responsibility for their actions as they've been enabled all their lives by their parents who were too afraid to tell them off.
Anyone who says they haven't lost it with their child at some point, is lying.

Beepbeepoutoftheway · 23/02/2025 22:34

BleedingMeDry · 23/02/2025 22:15

You’re the adult. I bet your kid will never forget how you made him feel. Well done. He obeyed out of shock and grief that his mother said those things. Expect to hear his feelings about his self-esteem a few months down the line, or a decade or two if he even still talks to you.

Edited

Dramatic much.