To be horrible to my four year old?

[appleandcat]

My four year old is a complete pain at the moment.He argues with everything I say and I mean everything. It’s literally being argumentative for the sake of it. It’s very draining and to be honest a bit depressing having everything you say disagreed with (I’ll say something like ‘I’m just nipping up the stairs!’ and he’ll say hourchily ‘you’re NOT going up the stairs.’)

So - I lost it a few days ago and I’m not proud of it but I screamed my head off at him, told him he was making me miserable and that I hated spending time with him, no one would want to be his friend. Horrible words and I did apologise for them but the thing is that it worked and he stopped arguing with me and whining at me.

Now we’re back to ‘normal.’ I have read the books and I’ve tried the techniques and all go ignored. And I’m actually wondering if I need to be a hell of a lot harsher and maybe that roaring out is what he needs. It’s certainly what my parents would have done: but I grew up with no confidence and I obviously don’t want that!

He is fine at nursery. So no idea what’s going on with him.

Well, of course you were unreasonable to "scream your head off at him." Do you remember what it feels like to be a very small child? It's terrifying when an adult screams at you. It's entirely possible he will remember your words and internalise them too.

And it doesn't matter if your screaming and insulting him "worked" to achieve the behaviour you wanted. It would probably "work" if you used a cattle prod on him too. Some things should never be permitted. The ends do not justify the means.

Having said that, I would say it sounds as though you have got into a negative feedback loop and need to reset it. I think it's fine to have expectations for behaviour, but it's so easy to fall into the trap of power struggles with children. It's unnecessary, of course, as you hold all the power. But it can happen without even realising it. Once every interaction feels like a battle, it's time to step back and consider how (if at all) you are contributing to the problem. And then work out what you want to achieve. Politeness? Compliance? Lack of whining? Once you've identified exactly what you hope to achieve, you can come up with a strategy.

My 4 year old is exactly the same right now...just does not stop talking! I have shouted at him when I've lost it but I think was you actually said to him was very harsh.

I know it's hard but how would you feel if someone said those things to you?

Agree with this completely

Interesting you refer to a lot of visual ques

Right, it's not so bad to let children know that parents have a limit to what they can take. When my kids are being arseholes difficult I think telling them loudly that their behaviour is driving you up the wall is alright.

I think saying that you hate spending time with him is bad. I would have nightmares about my child not forgetting those words. Take a lot of time to make absolutely certain that he knows you didn't mean it.

My four year old does this and it's infuriating. I just roll my eyes and say "ok whatever..." no point in arguing as she literally will argue that the sky isn't blue. On a bad day I argue back so I can see where you are coming from.

My non-mum guess would be that it probably works once or twice from shock value? Make use of this reset to change the dynamic into something more positive but with you in definitely in charge. You are the boss of him, lol.

Argue with a Four year old......
The teenage years will be interesting...Brace yourself

It’s not his personality, he’s just a normal 4 year old testing boundaries. Reacting emotionally to him will encourage this behaviour instead of building good habits and strong self esteem.

If he says you can’t go upstairs, ignore him and go upstairs.

If he says he doesn’t want to have an ice cream then say ok fine and don’t give him one. No discussion. He’ll soon stop saying it.

If he won’t pick up his toys when asked then put them away in a box in the cupboard for a day or two.

When he does behave, give him lots of positive reinforcement eg “it was really nice that you picked that toy up straight away when I asked you”, “I’ve had a really lovely day with you today because you played so nicely”, “it makes me so happy when you listen to me and do what I’m asking you to do”.

You need to show him that challenging me = life gets worse, working with me = life much better.

You told your four year old, tiny child, that he makes you miserable, you hate being around him, and that no one will want to be friends with him? And you're wondering if you should do it again??
Are you for real?
I get losing it, I honestly do - but they were such nasty things to say.

Oh to be one of the oh so perfect parents that are on Mumsnet 🙃

OP - I hear you! My 4 year old has been relentless these past couple of months to the point I've been in tears over how frustrating it is. I also shouted - and cried after 🙈 - but it's not as easy as taking deep breaths and counting to 10!

I bought a reward chart that's helped but also started giving jobs too. Eg, if im sorting the washing out, I give a job of cleaning the washing machine. It's working wonders.

You sound like you're doing great!

Try not to project forward (I do it all the time and it makes things 100 times worse!). If you can, just stop yourself when you notice yourself thinking, “shit! He’s going to be doing this when he’s 15!”
To be honest with you, I relate. I have a 3 nearly 4 who is feisty and knows her mind (I think these will be useful for her in this life!). She also wants to be IN CHARGE.
I’ve learned that it’s a million times worse when she is tired.
i consider myself a “gentle” parent, but I also have boundaries and try to use natural consequences, ie. if she shouts or whines for something, I’ll tell her I will give it to her when her body is calm/when she asks me calmly. It doesn’t always work, but it gives me a tool!
Also I listen to ‘Dr Becky’ podcasts regularly - I’d suggest you watch/listen to the one about ‘Deeply feeling kids’ and see if it fits.
Also, if I reach the end of my tether, I will tell her (in the hope I’m modelling emotional literacy ha ha!), “I’m feeling really stressed from all the shouting so I am going in the other room to take some deep breaths” or something like that. Which gives me the time to cool off and also doesn’t leave me feeling guilty when she says, “you shouldn’t have left me MUMMY!”
Strong determined minds are good but so do challenging when it’s mixed with being 4!!

The thing is none of what you've listed (sibling, "village" jobs) are your child's problem or fault, are they?

There is a huge amount of ground between "nicely nicely oh no darling don't do that" and screaming at a young child, saying nobody will like them and that you don't like being around them - ie, what the op describes doing. Surely knowing this is just basic common sense??

I also think the reason @appleandcat is getting such a strong reaction is because she fully acknowledges, in her opening post, that her parents shouting and deliberately being hurtful to her has left her with very little confidence. And yet she's on here trying to justify knowingly continuing to do it to her child because apparently "it worked" on him the other day- Note, it didn't fucking work, by her own account he shrunk into himself for a bit and now she's still having the same issues with behaviour as before.

My child has additional needs and we both work and deal with his issues, including being awake 2am-9m at its worst and no, I have never shouted that I don't enjoy being with him or that he won't have any friends. Because I'm not a twat.

And despite me never screaming or demeaning him he isn't feral or rude or violent, he is thriving at school and progressing more than we'd ever hoped he would.

Your update paints a different picture to your op.

…So you lost your patience and gave him a bollocking. And all the gentle parenting guilt trippers remind you that he’s only little (true) and he can’t be expected to regulate his emotions or whinging (false).

I was a good mum, a bit benign neglect (no routine, constantly toddling around in nappies and wellies and left to draw on the parquet floor) but I was constantly bollocking mine and keeping them in check. They’re adults now, all fine, emotionally stable, good jobs, still talk about their ‘idyllic childhood’ and we all still love each other and hang out.

I suggest you ignore the gentle lobby. They’re partly the reason there’s a teacher retention crisis. Cut yourself some slack for goodness sake. Parenting young kids is hard. Telling them off now and again does no harm.

Your bar for "doing great" is upsettingly low.

I don’t think I’m ’doing great’ but I don’t think I’m quite as terrible as I’m being presented as on here. That’s not to say I’m perfect and I did have a moment that wasn’t good and I’m not pleased with myself. It worked insofar as it shut him up (!) but it isn’t something I want to do again. What did make me wonder was - well what will work? That’s a rhetorical question largely. It probably is an annoying phase I have to wait out.

And the thing with teens is that while they aren’t easy you can at least step away from them for a few hours. I obviously can’t do that either DS so when you’ve had a loop of arguing for ages it does start to wear you down a bit.

We’re not “perfect”. We’re just not abusive and don’t scream in our child’s faces.

Very long term Karma will happen, a couple decades or more down the line he will tell you that his child is behaving like this and you can tell him why you sympathise😂

@appleandcat I forgot to mention in my last post that I (and my partner) have lost our temper! I just try my hardest to be regulated enough to express how I felt about something, so as to avoid shaming them. “I am feeling so cross!” Again I think this is important modelling and it helps me get out my feelings.
also you are so right that repair is the key. It’s also what my mother never did and in this sense I am determined to do things differently.

I didn’t scream ‘in his face’ (it was actually in the car!)

Jesus, what a horrible, vicious way to speak to your very young child. I've been on the receiving end of such "parenting". Trust me, he will never forget it.

You can tell your four year old off or even shout without making it quite so harsh.

I've lost my temper with mine, but it's more like. stop it now, I'm sick of you not listening to me!'
The things you said about not liking being with him and no one will want to be his friend are so, so harsh and damaging.
I think you need to take a huge step back and look at your relationship with him. And how you're feeling i general. How you can better remain calm and control your emotions. It's so hard but you need to explore this because a child who is treated like that will not grow up happy and well adjusted

Mine’s like this. He’s a nightmare for me and not much better at school where they have a policy of asking nicely, rather than telling kids what to do…

As a result, we’ve enrolled him in two strict sports and he is thriving. The expectations are clear for progression and behaviour. He attends three sessions with relevant trainers and is expected to practice at home. He is now manageable other than at meal times.

I didn’t think we’d be the kind of parents to enrol is strict sports, but it’s working right now and he enjoys it. He is respectful to his coaches, but still struggles with the ambiguity at school.

What you did was emotionally abusive.

Have you done any parenting classes?

Talked to a family therapist?

How is he with his Dad?

First of all, don't minimise what you have done. The OP paints quite a different picture to your follow-up post claiming to repeat your exact words. If you genuinely screamed at him and said he was making you miserable and that you hated spending time with him and no one would want to be his friend, then own those words. Understand exactly how damaging they can be. Saying that you've only ever screamed at him like this once is not the get-out clause you seem to think it is.

If you are concerned that your relationship is already irrevocably damaged, please seek some professional help. Your child gets one shot at childhood.

It's also interesting that you connect your son's behaviour to your brother's as a child. Some of your posts sound as though you are interacting with your son as though he is an equal, almost as though you are reliving the sibling relationship you experienced. It can be easy to fall into familiar patterns, but your little boy is not your brother reincarnated. If he contradicts you by saying the hill isn't big, surely that isn't something to get worked up about? Just smile and say, "Oh, really? What is the biggest hill you can think of? How long would it take to climb?" Or whatever. But acting as though a small child's irrational comments are something to lose your temper over is a bit concerning.