To think that now is the time for powerful voices to speak up…

[Alifemoreordinary123]

I’m not highly educated or hugely politically savvy. But like many people, I’m horrified by Trump and Musk’s approach, propaganda and ideology. It’s increasingly possibly they will take the world to a very dark place. I keep thinking, surely there are enough counter powers - people with power and influence, leaders from business, media, the arts, politics across the Western world to try and counter some of their rhetoric. I’m not naive to the immense power they hold, but surely reason, sense, logic and hope will win over?

@rabbitwoman PP on here have asked for your views on Trumps attitude towards women and children and you've not provided any discourse. Not that you're obligated too but you've asked us to persuade you of our argument when you've not persuaded us of yours. Reciprocal remember?

No - it was the daft Tumblr kids who went for the gender stuff. The conspiracists are normally right wing Trumpites. Very different flavours of fact-free nonsense.

It isn’t the mad antivaxxers and moon landing Christian Q-anoners who went for the gender gubbins. They do love Trump though! The clownfish-gender-microaggression types don’t go all in for the pro-gun ivermectin Bitcoin stuff, either: Judith Butler, yes; Tulsi Gabbard, no. Same as the Reform-15 minute-cities types here all hate the genderwoo-types, and vice versa.

However: all of it is gubbins. You don’t have to believe in any of it to be a sane, centrist, informed person. Knowing that men can’t grow a cervix does not mean one then has to throw one’s lot in with Nigel Farage and talk bollocks about immigrants.

I hope this helps!

Any reason why my perfectly rational post has been hidden, @Mumsnet? This is twice this evening that a post I have posted about Trump has been immediately hidden “to be looked at”. Censorship much?

So has mine!

You are showing your self to be in an algorithm loop of a certain kind. It does your credibility no good. There are certain things that if I hear them I know immediately what kind of SM loops people are in and I’m afraid it stops me taking them seriously. I try to keep listening but it’s very hard not to just dismiss it as bunkum.

Women were terrified before as well, @madamweb

Women in prison with male rapists. Parents of children caught up in a dangerous movement encouraging them to cut off healthy body parts and sterilise themselves with poisonous drugs. Women who lived with fentynal addicts on their streets. To say nothing of girls who trained and sacrificed to excel at their sport only to have it snatched away by a boy, to say nothing of the girls who had to wriggle into a tight swimming costume whilst a six foot four bloke watched them.

So look, I may be wrong. I am not even American, and we have a labour government here for the foreseeable future at least. But I was deeply changed by how that all played out; my politics, who I trust, even my own personal relationships have changed when I was told men ARE women if they say they are and to shut up if I don't like it.

And it effected my political alignment and I am not the only one.

It may not be the only thing happening in the world right now or even the most impactful but it had enough of an impact on me to change my world view of a whole host of things that my be informed by the media I consume.

Same.

Same.....

Well put.

I think you are being very myopic. The tide was starting to turn on that issue anyway. Aligning yourself with nasty misogynists is an alarmingly naive choice.

I'm not Trump fan and some of the things he's come out with this week are just odd and stupid. However looking objectively at the Ukraine war. Prior to Trump, there was no end in sight for it. Just a pointless war of attrition that was going one of 2 ways. Ukraine losses get too much and Russia pushes forward. Or red lines eventually get crossed and NATO joins the war. Not sure about most, but I don't fancy any of those 2 options as they both inevitably lead to a wider conflict with Russia.

Europe has needed to pull it's finger out for ages now regarding defence, leaders have been saying this for ages and yes it's a bit unorthodox the way it's come about but it needed to happen.

People in this and other threads are correct in saying that without US support no one else will step up because the fact is they can't afford to. Trump knows this so knows Europe will inevitably agree to any of the ceasefire terms ( hence why leaders haven't come about and said they reject the American peace terms or potential terms with Russia)

Appeasing Putin is dangerous by Trump, but Europe were sleepy in 2014 when we should have dealt with this properly. Yes it's the US that are acting foolish now but we shouldn't have let it get to this stage 10 years ago.

Trump only has America interests at heart. This was not news to anyone and people that are shocked that any of this is happened were naive as this is exactly what most expected and even Trump said he was going to do.

3 positives will come out of this though.

The fighting will stop (hopefully long term)

UK will once again move closer to the EU

EU will buck up it's ideas and sort it's defence out.

Where our future relationship lies with the US is anyone's guess. I'd think it will be come just that a relationship as opposed to a "special relationship"

Are you suggesting I’m in a SM Algorithm loop?

More fascist I think.

That’s what I see. Same narcissistic personality. Same sociopathic views. Same old same old. But emboldened and even more transparent in his utter contempt for his fellow humans unless he thinks he can gain something.

You don’t realise that it was Trump’s election in 2016 that emboldened Russian aggression and renewed incursions into European air and naval space, plus his statements on NATO?

You don’t remember the Trump family links to Russia in his first term?

Trump has been enabling Russian expansion all along.

'I think you are being very myopic. The tide was starting to turn on that issue anyway. Aligning yourself with nasty misogynists is an alarmingly naive choice.'

The public are making their feelings clear by voting a certain way. By not supporting certain causes, by withdrawing their spending from Budweiser, gyms, Disney films.... but big stats with huge platforms?

And I don't think kamala Harris was changing her mind.

And why am I the myopic one? Hillary Clinton wanted to make Bill Clinton the first gentleman. Feminist hero?

I was as disgusted as anyone by the 'grab em by the pussy' quote. But I did some more nuanced thinking, I listened to the full conversation, and have come to the conclusion that Trump was misrepresented. What are you going to do about that? Insist I am wrong. Do it. I am fine with that. Support who you like, belive what you like. I have no interest in trying to persuade you.

What about 'I did not have sexual relations with that woman!' less course, perhaps, equally vile. And yes, the Clintons also visited epstein island.

So you know what? I am going to hold my nose, align with whoever will listen for now, brace myself for the consequences and see how I feel at the next election.

If you want people like me to vote alongside people like you, stop treating me like an idiot.

Perhaps. But if we hadn't half heartedly condemned Russia in 2014 maybe he would have had second thoughts about doing it again.

The reason Putin has gone in again on Ukraine is he knew that we wouldn't stand up to him once again.

How can “Grab ‘em by the pussy” be misrepresentation? It’s pretty fucking unambiguous.

I’ve had extensive training on grooming gangs.

Where did you get your information on the nuances of history?

@Alifemoreordinary123 ,
”I’m not highly educated or hugely politically savvy. ”
You don’t say. 🙄

Rude.

I'm not too keen on men taking women's spaces in sports, business, changing rooms etc. either and I believe there absolutely should have been more reasonable measures taken (third spaces etc. I too, wasn't listened to on these issues. Not by anyone person in particular, except for a few friends.

But there's no way I can align myself with a rapist on any count no matter how mental culture wars has become. I cannot justify embracing people like Trump, Musk, Putin, Farage et al. Just because they sound "refreshing" or whatever. Beneath it all it is dark and sordid.

How do you feel about Andrew Tate?

The exact phrasing escapes me.

But there is a difference between 'if you are rich you can just grab women by the pussy' and 'there are some women who will just let you grab em by the pussy if you are rich.'

If I had had a vote in the last US election I may have compiled a more comprehensive list of reasons for debates such as this but I didn't. I know many many Americans did, and a man who was roundly vilified, branded a misogynist pschycopath, a racist, a clown, won outright. Despite everything.

He was seen as better than the alternative. There are lessons to be learnt from that.

Thank you for the interesting conversation. I have learnt and absorbed even more than before. I am just as confident now that the right person is in charge for the foreseeable future as I was a few hours ago.

I am only one person on a forum, I am anonymous and open minded, I am intelligent and engaged and have responsibities in real life. So, food for thought for you guts, maybe? Or not. Sleep well, notwithstanding xxx

Trump is about as dignified as a three year old who has been left unsupervised around the fake tan.