Daughter’s friend acts like a twat

[outthereandbeyond]

I’m failing as a parent here because I really don’t know where the boundary is.

my DD (8) has a friend (8) who really behaves badly, like all the time. On play dates, she is rude, never says please/thank you, throws things, breaks things (in my house) will have meltdowns and cry literally like a baby over the smallest things. Demands food then won’t eat it, defies rules when we’re together. Just everything annoying you could possibley think of in a child.

I’m ADHD, single mum & can get triggered when im overwhelmed. She came over for a play date yesterday and pushed me beyond my limits. I get a splitting headache whenever she’s around.

the mum is a good friend of mine, and I’ve tried speaking to her about it and suggesting small edits to how we parent in the pretence that we’re both fumbling through this journey. For example I suggest encouraging her to model using word when daughter cries instead of tears, or encouring our children to put on their own shoes (this child refuses to get dressed alone). My friend insists that my daughter is just as bad (she really isn’t) but I say yeah yeah, so as not to offend and to let them be as they’re finding their way in the world. I just disagree with this and feel that the girl plays up because the mum never models good behaviour.

Here is where everyone will shoot me…, my friend says she suspects her now to be SEN/autistic which would make sense - only SUSPECTS, not diagnosed. My daughter IS diagnosed with SEN.

But now my daughter accepts this awful behaviour when they’re on play dates and I don’t think my daughter should be putting up with this. One time this girl refused to wipe her bum after a poo and asked me to do it (our house). I explained that I wasn’t going to touch her body as it was private and that she ought to wipe herself or pull up her pants and deal with it at home. She screamed and cried for me to do it but I kindly declined as o didn’t think it was right to touch her, after all I wouldn’t be comfortable with someone doing it to my daughter at 8. After a few minutes all was quiet. When I went to check, my daughter, was wiping her bum for her. I pulled daughter aside and said ‘honey. That’s not your responsibility but your friends’ but my daughter said she would do it as she has special needs (not diagnosed, mind).

I told the mum and she said she thought it was fine as that’s what friends should do…. 🤯

help me, I want to guide my daughter and I don’t think she should be putting up with this in a friendship.

if I am wrong then please tell me gently.

This

Oh for goodness sake. What a turn of phrase. Of course I care about my child and myself.

That’s exactly the reason I am here asking for advice. Not all of us are surrounded by husbands, parents or wise friends. This is why we come to a forum for perspectives.

If you take the time to read, observe, understand, you’ll see that I am evolving on this matter.

When she comes over, I always say ‘please’ after she asks me something. She just doesn’t say it - ever. But her mum doesn’t model it. Speaks for her. Doesn’t encourage her to find her voice. I asked the mum ‘do you encourage her to use her words when she makes whining noises?’ She said ‘they are growing up and learning who they are in the world’ (she meant so they don’t need to be taught). It made me think.

but now I realise it is the mum who doesn’t show her the way.

the last couple days have been eye opening for me on this topic.

Just want to say thank you to everyone who has given me some advice here in this topic. I have really had my eyes opened and makes me realise even more than ever, I need to trust my instinct when something isn’t right….

I have suspected this relationship isn’t right for us but hesitated because my daughter calls her her best friend.

I need to be strong with this relationship and let it fizzle out.

Really interesting perspective. We are like her only friend. At her birthday party recently, my daughter and another boy (who is really naughty at school) were the only children there. The mum said it’s because she can’t be around other children, but it’s most likely because other children don’t get on with her.

my friend is also always saying and enforcing the fact that they’re ’besties’ goes as far as to say they’re ‘Twinnies’ my daughter loves that they are called that because she’s always wanted a sibling. It’s really odd now you mention it.

I work with younger children (3,4,5) and one thing I've noted and been surprised at is how many children communicate in totally inappropriate ways, like pointing and grunting if they want something or making whiny noises if something doesn't work for example if they can't open something or it's out of reach. For most children it's the first time out of a home environment so we know this is what has been accepted at home. We tell them to use their words and model the correct words for them, help please etc. Then we basically pretend we can't understand them unless they say what we have instructed. Most kids change their behaviour within a day or two. Even those with SEN, even non verbal children, find a different way of communicating that is appropriate, they may just need more reminders. After the October mid term or Christmas break the same children tend to regress to grunts, dropping things on the floor, leaving snots run down their face, or making whiney or shrieking noises, and we have to train them again, again this resolves in a matter of days. It never ceases to amaze me how many parents don't realise how wrong this is and how they are holding their children back by allowing this. Also how obvious this is to everyone else.

Always go with your gut feeling - (and ignore all the negative posts!) As you've said, your view of the situation has evolved as this thread has progressed and you now realise that both friendships have to go - it's definite;y the right decision.

I hope this thread has reassured you that you've clearly got a good handle on what's right for you and your DD, good instinct and that when something doesn't feel right calling a halt to it promptly, but positively, is the right way to go - it's a good response to model for your DD too - having a kind heart doesn't mean getting trampled on by others less considerate than you.

I suspect the child’s needs are not being met. I remember we were at a festival last year. It was busy. Mum kept popping away to the bar/toilet etc. When she’d come back she never checked in on the child, only scolded her when ever she called her (I could see child wanted to be comforted).

also worth noting that I sense this child HATES me, and whispers to my daughter about me.

good grief. The more I say it out loud, the more I realise this is just wrong.

I’m sorry , I just don’t get how you can’t sit down with your friend and chat all this out , are ye actually friends or just friendly because of the kids ? There is a difference..
All sounds really dramatic to me & can’t possibly be positive for your daughter the way things are ..
If you & your friend can’t rectify the situation, I’d be calling it a day , but I would try first to fix things first & if that fails then , at least ye know ye gave it yr all 🤷🏻‍♀️

I just can’t imagine how this conversation would go well? I imagine it’ll go something like so:

me ‘Hey, your daughter is misbehaving. Do you think you can do something about it’

Her ’she is SEN/Autisitc. There’s nothing I can do. She’s her own person’

Me ’why don’t you try x, y, z?’

Her ‘I’ve tried and I don’t need you telling me how to parent. Your daughter is just as bad’

me ‘I’m making suggesting for how to manage, and no. I disagree. My daughter isn’t as bad as she doesn’t shit her pants’

I mean. This is slightly tongue in cheek, but how else would that conversation end except badly? I’ll have to have a think. We’re supposed to be meeting at the weekend

You are correct in saying your DD should not be putting up with the behaviour you describe from her friend. Your DD has been conditioned into thinking she’s her best friend by the mum but the moment she felt compelled to help her friend in the bathroom, she became her carer. That simply can’t continue.

None of the poor behaviour you describe can be put down 100% to SEN, though I agree that SEN children are more likely to find it much more difficult to conform and behave nicely. That simply means a lot more work for parents to guide them. It doesn’t mean to make excuses and drop standards of behaviour.
Your expectations of behaviour for your child are very different to those of this friend which is why this difficulty has arisen. Your friend is hoping you won’t notice.

Your friend is probably guilty of lazy parenting, of not taking time or making extra effort to help her DD. She likes you as a friend as you are compliant and she can normalise her poor parenting by saying you two mums are the same as well as saying the two girls are twinnies.

Don’t let her drag you and your DD down any more OP.
You and DD both deserve much nicer friends and are capable of being good friends to others who have higher expectation's the same as you.

It must be hard as a single mum to find like-minded friends but I would make an excuse for this weekend if you possibly can. It’s really good you have sussed her out a bit more and now realise it’s not good to subject your own DD to that sort of very poor behaviour.
Stay firm …I have a feeling this mum won’t let you go so easily -as you and your DD are so useful to her.

Why is every child that is rude, throws tantrums etc suddenly got sen? My sil child did this, was sick on demand of he didn’t get his own way for example, he isn’t sen, he was a brat with no boundaries set, once the sil started ignoring the tantrum’s etc, and laid out the rules, he was a different child. I wonder if people know how to bring their children up nowadays, seems everyone everything has to have a label. anything for an easy life.
As far as the Op goes, stop having the child around.

I never wiped my own kid's bum once they were old enough to use the toilet. It was one of the first lifeskills they learnt and they're ND.

And this kid is 8!

The skills you're talking about are nursery ones. Who wipes for this kid at school? Or dresses them? Sadly I think this kid's behaviour may have more to do with the Mum than any SEND.

The bottom wiping thing is completely unacceptable and I'd definitely be culling the friendship.

Have a last minute crisis and cancel your meetup. Something like a migraine which you can use again, not the boiler breaking.

You can then be very busy and unavailable and phase her out.

Your responses here indicate that you're very reasonable. Halfway measure of only having child over if Mum comes too is ok, but means you have to entertain. Sounds like you've gained sufficient perspective from the constructive responses here to start distancing your DC and self . Parenting today seems much harder.

No no no! Stop these play dates. This child isn’t being g bought up at all by her mother. I would stop contact and explain to your daughter that you can’t have child x to play because we do things differently and help her find new friends through school or outside groups

I think you’ve realised how awful this mum’s parenting is and that she’s enabling her child. It’s not in your child’s best interest to have this ‘twin’ in her life. The idea of your daughter wiping her friend’s bum is appalling, your poor child. I think it’s very useful that she’s moved schools/areas, you can allow this to fizzle out, but if the mum tries to insist, I’d not hold back from telling her you won’t have further playdates without her present and why after the wiping incident.

It does sound like the friend may be ND. I recognise a lot of her behaviour in my daughter but she only does it at home as she masks everywhere else. She’s AuDHD.

The mum of the girl shouldn’t be dropping her round for play dates though as she clearly can’t cope with them. And you shouldn’t be continuing to have her over.

I’ve said you’re unreasonable as you don’t seem to understand how even being undiagnosed autistic can still make a child behave this way. And you seem to think this kid is behaving this way by choice.

We had a very similar situation. We stopped inviting the child to our house. Happy for town/activity meet ups but we were not putting up with the behaviour to our child and our belongings.

I had someone like that in my life at your daughter's age. My mother invited her over, not me. Our mothers were friends but we weren't. We might have looked like friends to the adults. Later she physically bullied me at school. I had a good friend my mum couldn't stand who fought her off. Luckily. I'd have been happier going through my life not knowing her. You can stop this. Meet your friend on her own while the dad's separately watch the kids. Leave them out of it.

I would absolutely draw the line at a child having my child wipe their bottom for them! I have dear friends that I love like sisters and the only way I would do that for them is if they were very ill. Really it's time to draw a line under this friendship.

I voted YABU as your reaction till now is unreasonable towards your daughter. It’s not your daughter’s responsibility to stand up to her friend. It’s YOUR responsibility to deal with the child. You should have sent her home the FIRST time she acted like a brat. You’re enabling her behaviour and enabling g her mother to accept her behaviour by accepting her behaviour at your house. Stop having her over. Tell her and her mother she’s welcome to play if she is well behaved.
this is probably going to put a damper on your friendship, but honestly, your friend is just being a bad parent if the kid has no manners. Even a kid with a diagnosis can be taught manners. What exactly do you want to teach your daughter? That it’s ok to be treated rudely or that it’s ok to tell people that their behaviour is not ok?

What really stands out to me is how the mum seems to be ignoring the child and her needs.

How is she going to be learning anything to support her development if she is in her bedroom all the time on Roblox, even at mealtimes? I actually think that is quite unsafe. Both from perspective of internet safety and a kid with possible SEN eating alone unsupervised every day. What if she choked?

Her mum ignoring her at the festival and scolding her when she wants comfort is actually really sad.

It sounds like she's almost using the SEN thing as a get out of jail free card for parenting. No one can judge my parenting cos my daughter is SEN/ she's SEN so that's how she is I'm not going to bother teaching her anything.

I've only really seen situations like this where mum has drink/drug issues, severe mental illness getting in the way of being able to parent, or a traumatic childhood herself meaning that she just does not know what a parent should do for their child. But those things can be improved If the parent asks for support. If this is just laziness that's even more shocking tbh

What's most worrying is that she doesn't seem to be looking for support, advice etc so has just decided not to bother raising her daughter. She is supposed to be the person who guides her child through the world. If she does have SEN her mum needs to give her more support, not less. If not, it seems this girl has had her social and emotional development needs met and is crying out for attention.

I actually feel really sorry for the little girl. It sounds like she is being failed. I hope nothing awful happens to her. But until the mum actually starts parenting her properly she is just not going to be able to keep friends. That's the consequence of her mother's actions.

These play dates need to stop. Immediately. It’s sad for everyone involved but it’s how it is. You can make an excuse for this weekend’s meet up and then gently phase them out of your life. (You are sick, something came up, you’re not feeling well etc … until you haven’t met up for months.) This should not be too hard now that they have moved and changed schools. Next, I would try to set up other play dates with girls from your daughter’s class, from your neighbourhood etc. She’ll make new friends (and hopefully, with time, your daughter’s friend will too).

Said in another context, but I have more than once had to explain that getting a diagnosis is not a "Get out of Jail" card. Before you call me unsympathetic let me clarify.
It can be very useful to get a clear diagnosis from an expert, and they will often suggest ways forward. If they are not one of the lucky ones who "gets the message" about behaviours, they need to be gently but firmly steered in the right direction, praised and encouraged when they show generosity and empathy.
It can be exhausting, especially when bratty behaviour has worked, in their eyes, very well for them, but in the long run, it would be in her best interests.
The birthday party incident is telling; your daughter needs reassuring that she is not responsible for her friend's well-being, but the child will grow up increasingly frustrated and isolated without help.