To be disgusted at the talks between Russia and the US

[SunnyDayInFeb]

So Russia and the US are meeting in Saudia Arabia to carve up Ukraine.

And Ukraine, whose people have been fighting and dying since their country was invaded, haven't even been invited to the table.

It's like we are back in the 19th century with the European colonial powers drawing lines on a map to divide Africa between them.

That's why a cleverer person is needed than Donald Trump.

Bewareofthisonetoo · Today 09:30
To make him out to look like the big guy when actually he is just a posturer. He is irrelevant -leave it to the adults to sort out.

You think that Rubio and Lavrov are “the adults”?

Jesus H Christ.

This thread has been mostly brilliant because it's not had so called troll hunters savagely attacking posters whom they don't like their views.

Please report to mn if you think someone is disingenuous and keep it out the thread

Exactly. Thats what the whole “oh just exchange some land for peace” “just negotiate” crowd never seem to understand.

@Barney16 what they need and I hope both administration had :is a team of putin experts and pyscological profilers working on it. They must have surely?
Also I'm thinking some poor terrified person is a USA mole in Russia and moles must also be in the Whitehouse.
However I wonder if they have been naturally flushed out with all the changes?
People say putin wants this and that and to restore Russia to its glory days.
Maybe he does but I can't help feel it's more about diversion away from his terrible rule?

not always good for moral, but always best to assume eyes and ears everywhere, they say more spys are operating now than back during the cold war

We have the business of mutual self destruction though, let's not forget.

We - the Europeans- have to stand strong here, because if Trump lets Putin claim the land he has gained in this horrible war, he or his successor will not stop there. Other posters have mentioned Russia needs time to regroup, and this appeasement by Trump will allow him that.

The Ukraine may not be in the EU yet, but Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Croatia, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia are, of these Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia are members of NATO, as are we.

So at some point in the future, when Russia is stronger again, there is no knowing where this could end.

That's why Ukraine and all of Europe need to be included in any talks about the end of this war.

Moles in the White House? Well yes. Very big ones and many of them.

Another US plane crash. No fatalities fortunately.

It’s just incredible how this has started happening out of the blue (so to speak).

Is it deliberate?

I think there was heavy snow at Toronto airport

I'm hoping it's not related to Musk's unique HR skills regarding federal employees.

@Cupcakes2035 yes but I'm thinking their mole may have been naturally flushed out in trumps tsunami

@Serpentstooth yes of course there will be moles I'm musing over the fact they may have been inadvertently thrown out with the bathwater

these days who knows

Just having seen that snake Nebenzia at the UN, confidently stating what russia expects, (which should be The Hague for war crimes) is heartbreaking.

The sheer audacity. And trump is rewarding them.

@Cupcakes2035 With regards to your Point 6 on the bad faith sell out of Ukraine - I was just wondering how you balance that with Hegseth’s comments last week? Hegseth ruled out NATO membership for Ukraine and stated that the country could not return to its internationally recognised borders before any official negotiations have even begun. Even Republican senators have criticised and been ‘disturbed’ by this approach. Senator Wicker likened Hegseth’s speech to something Tucker Carlson, the pro-Putin broadcaster, would have written. Can you honestly not see how this ‘settlement’ made without Ukraine involvement and negotiations can be perceived as a betrayal? How does Zelensky faithfully enter into any negotiations when that has already been publicly announced by the US Defence Secretary?

I see the concern, but there’s a difference between setting realistic expectations and outright selling Ukraine out. The U.S. ruling out NATO membership and full territorial restoration before talks even begin is definitely a tough pill to swallow, but it might be a way to get Russia to the table rather than an end goal. Even if those positions are being floated now, Ukraine still has a say in the final agreement. If they refuse to accept terms that undermine their sovereignty, the U.S. can’t force them to sign anything.

It was an American airline, but it occurred in Canada.

@Barney16

Someone on Radio 4 likened this to appeasement and I see their point. I do not understand how on earth an American president can brazenly negotiate fate of a country that isn't his country. It's outrageous. And this signals the destabilisation of NATO and Europe. We live in very dangerous times and this is very, very dangerous.

I think Trump believes the US owns Ukraine due to the military support the country has received since Russia attacked. He is now negotiating the terms of Ukraine's surrender to Russia. This is why he doesn't Zelenskyy involved in any meaningful way with talks.

I can, unfortunately, see a future landscape where the US joins Russia against Europe. This is the rhetoric I'm seeing ATM - from both sides.

Realpolitik suggests that without Western support, particularly from the U.S., Ukraine would have faced severe challenges, and it’s possible that Russia could have asserted more control over Ukraine or ruled it completely.

@Cupcakes2035

Realpolitik suggests that without Western support, particularly from the U.S., Ukraine would have faced severe challenges, and it’s possible that Russia could have asserted more control over Ukraine or ruled it completely.

Yes? That was before Trump, though.

Europe has long relied on its alliance with the US for security (i.e. NATO). Trump has made clear, for years now, that he has no interest in maintaining this alliance. He is also turning against Canada and Mexico, the US's closest trade partners, and threatening to invade Greenland (part of Denmark.

Trump's US will look to expand its power over the Americas, and he will leave European countries to deal with the threat of Russia themselves.

The US might continue to be an important trade partner with the EU, but it won't be an ally in the way that it has since WW2 (and might actually be antagonistic).

Where the UK fits in is less clear but it could well find itself having to choose between aligning the Europe or the US. Strategically, I'd choose the former. The US have shown (in relation to Canada in particular) that they are no longer a country upon which it is safe to be closely economically tied to.

It's incredible how quickly support happened on here, due to Starmer I'm guessing. Concerning too

It looks like Scholz is irritated by his move, perhaps it was an attempt for political capital by KS

But after an emergency meeting of European leaders in Paris on Mondayy_, Olaf Scholz, Germany’s chancellor, said the suggestion was “completely premature”, “highly inappropriate”

I am all for any steps that bring peace. It remains to be seen what Trump and Putin's intentions are here.

What I do think is blatantly obvious though is that Ukraine joining NATO is as unpalatable to Russia as it would be for them to join CTSO for America. Perhaps a new alliance supported by both sides for the countries in vulnerable positions between NATO Europe and Russia would offer a backstop, protected in principle by both sides would offer a compromise and also give autonomy back to those countries.