To be disgusted at the talks between Russia and the US

[SunnyDayInFeb]

So Russia and the US are meeting in Saudia Arabia to carve up Ukraine.

And Ukraine, whose people have been fighting and dying since their country was invaded, haven't even been invited to the table.

It's like we are back in the 19th century with the European colonial powers drawing lines on a map to divide Africa between them.

@EasternStandard does that mean sholz feels starmer has also sold out Ukraine?

@Catsandcheese

Unfortunately they, the eu have little leverage here because they are not strong enough military wise.

Putin is loving cutting Europe out!
He wouldn't dream of this if any eu country was actually a real threat to him.
He knows are all just relying on USA

If the threat of Russian invasion across Europe is so real why have they not done anything about it?

@AlternativeView
I believe I posted a couple of charts earlier - the EU together with the UK and other non EU European countries have contributed more to Ukraine than the US.
If Russia can get away with winning territory in Ukraine, then with time to regroup and retrain, they will try again at some point in the future.

But no one is doing anything to end it and it can't continue forever can it?

That article is behind a paywall, but some of it can be read in full via the BBC website.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20k0yr6vn9o

US-Russia talks are under way in Riyadh, Zelenskyy was not invited.

@AlternativeView this is the full quote from Scholz

“It is completely premature and the completely wrong time to be having this discussion now. I am even a little irritated by these debates,” Mr Scholz told reporters after leaving the talks for an election debate.
The chancellor insisted discussions on possible European troop deployments were being held “over the heads of Ukrainians about the outcome of peace talks that haven’t even started”.
He added: “This is highly inappropriate, to put it bluntly and honestly – we don’t even know what the outcome will be.”

I think you are giving the US administration far too much credit with this and ‘a tough pill to swallow’ is an inadequate description of the position that this leaves Ukraine in, at such an early stage. This isn’t how competent, diplomatic, nuanced negotiations start or are conducted - it wasn’t merely ‘floating ideas’ on ‘realistic expectations’ as he was outlining the terms of the agreement for Ukraine to the world from the outset, after a Trump phone call to Putin. What does this approach now suggest about the way the US will conduct any future negotiations? Hegseth has been a controversial choice for many valid reasons and he is clearly out of his depth here, which is a common pattern for Trump’s choices for senior roles. This is a huge concern, and I would argue that it is naive to think otherwise.

I’d also question how much power Ukraine actually has, in real terms - it’s not quite as simple and straightforward as them having the final decision on signing off (or not) on any deal.

https://kyivindependent.com/europe-is-ready-and-willing-to-step-up-rutte-on-security-guarantees-for-ukraine/

Europe is ready and willing to take a leadership role in providing Ukraine with security guarantees, NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte wrote on Feb. 17 on X.

@Sherbs12 I am pretty certain the response you are engaging with was generated by a LLM such as ChatGpt. That explains why it sounds plausible but doesn't really make any sense.

A reminder that there is a general election in Germany which leaves Scholz in a precarious position

Everything I’ve read indicates that Scholz is unlikely to be in power this time next week so Germany’s position might be different.

Europe isn't included because Europe doesn't have a viable military to do anything about anything. Take the UK for example. To boost defence spending to 5% GDP like the US would require another £80 billion per year. Never gonna happen. Starmer talking about UK peacekeeping troops on the ground is hilarious. We could barely scrape together 5000 when 100's of thousands would be required. And we won't even do that without the US acting as "backstop" in case Russia does something mean. Europe is irrelevant.

Yes he's finished. He is just thinking about his election next week. Germany is in real trouble, its economic model is failing. So I wouldn't be expecting them (whoever gets in) to be expending resource on Ukraine. If Germany were self orientated, they would conclude that they were better off with a peace deal.

Underlying all of this that Russia would actually like European money and business.

For example, if there is such a deal, the UK, US and EU will stop the sanctions that have driven Russia to be a war economy.

Europe is not a monolith. A lot of people would prefer to make money from Russia rather than fight it by proxy.

If Germany were self orientated, they would conclude that they were better off with a peace deal

I am not sure this is at all true if the peace deal is basically a capitulation to the Russians.

Remember that Eastern Germany was one of the countries that fell under Russian control for 40 years.

Putin's Russia is a corrupt and lawless place. The more its influence extends into Europe, bullying, setting up puppet regimes, interfering with elections then the worse things will get for everyone.

I agree on East Germany as a historical counterpoint. But look at the architect of Germany's dependence on Russia for power. That is Merkel, who made further links with Russia part of Germany's industrial strategy. That has now failed.

Germany is an ambiguous player in the EU and for the Ukraine. I wouldn't rely on them as a driver of international engagement. They are preoccupied with a decline in their fortunes and a drift into the far right.

He is just thinking about his election next week.

I doubt it. He knows the polling. It's KS trying to get political capital on this.

@SunnyDayInFeb - btw I agree on Russia's puppet regimes. But this is already happening. Orban is a conspicuous lickspittle to Putin, but others are coming. I am not sure the EU can handle it.

This Paris discussion yesterday had to exclude Orban. Okay he's not a major military player, but you only need a few more Putin friendly governments in the EU and the thing will be crippled from acting against a hostile neighbour.

Only France and Sweden supported the drive.

It's not only Germany, although Scholz clearly felt it was wrong enough to speak on it

Given that we peasants are party to about one tenth of what is really going on, I think the whole situation is absolutely terrifying.
What can the average person do? Nothing. Get up each day and do your best.
Frozen by terror.

It's interesting people are keen on Germany shifting after the GE which will be to the right. The centre right and AfD

But as you were at pains to point out this will not really be popular with many people who aren't already Labour voters? Little capital.

Scholz is thinking of his election and how he can get enough votes for coalition bargaining.

It's not keen, it's an easy observation based on their polling figures.

They clearly need a better mechanism to force a country to leave the EU and should have got one before expanding sp much.

I feel like the amount of influence wielded by Russia is totally disproportionate to its economic and military strength and is down to its sucess at manipulation. Many democracies seem too naive or incapable of defending themselves.

Where did I say that specifically? My posts have been on the risk and finding common ground with various EU leaders. Tg.

An attempt for political capital may or may not work, but it's still an angle. Of course it is, he forgot to check others agreed with him in his haste.