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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are we heading into a major recession?

430 replies

bodychanges · 12/02/2025 13:16

Things are already tough in my industry - I’m a contractor and this past year is my worst in over two decades - but should I be expecting things to get worse not better?

and I sound stupid, but what are the main economic indicators?

OP posts:
EasternStandard · 14/02/2025 20:23

wipeywipe · 14/02/2025 20:22

No one is wound up, I am just taking the piss out of you. You make it too easy.

I think you're missing the mark but up to you to waste your time

TheNuthatch · 14/02/2025 20:35

Andwhoisasking · 14/02/2025 20:22

Our young talent in IT/engineering especially is leaving. It’s gone from relocating to proper brain drain. We are now left with 100s of migrants applying for jobs. It’s not the boats that are the issue. It’s people coming over here on graduate visas and bring their family over. The issue is they don’t have the skill we need. Over 500 applications for recent hires. Mostly people on graduate visas and not up to the job.

We are well known in IT/engineering for proving stellar graduates - who are being headhunted elsewhere. The UK is highly regarded in that field. We are desperately trying to fill this gap with people not up to scratch. The result? Globals are hiring elsewhere and people are relocating.

Unless you are actively in the private sector right now it is impossible to describe the car crash it is. That lack of skill and tax is starting to filter down to public spending plans and it will be the private sector next.

People who don’t realise there is an issue are either pensioners, on welfare or are in the public sector. It’s the only explanation because you’d have to have lost your mind to work in the private sector and not see the issue getting worse daily.

All of this 👏

Leira2025 · 14/02/2025 20:37

Yes, it feels almost exactly like the early 1990s to me, only with billions more people on the planet and everyone still not recovered from the banking crisis, Brexit, COVID or the cost of living crisis. Well, apart from the likes of Rees Mogg and Farage. They never suffer.

And now we have President Musk and his mad little mini mes and the rise of the Far Right. Again. There'll be nothing left of America in four years time and Europe will only survive if it pulls together.

As for the UK, well, I'm glad I'm in the latter third of my life as I think it is going to get very very tough. We're basically living in the 18th century but with cars and computers.

Andwhoisasking · 14/02/2025 20:49

TheNuthatch · 14/02/2025 20:35

All of this 👏

Over 500 CVs and it was mostly shit written by AI. Not up to the job at all - the majority all here on graduate visas. So posts will be recruited in Silicon Valley instead. Literally destroying progressive industries and forcing all the homegrown and very good talent out. It’s bloody awful. These are the higher rate tax payers/talent of the future we need here. Not importing sub standard people and their families at net cost to the state.

nearlylovemyusername · 14/02/2025 20:51

Andwhoisasking · 14/02/2025 20:22

Our young talent in IT/engineering especially is leaving. It’s gone from relocating to proper brain drain. We are now left with 100s of migrants applying for jobs. It’s not the boats that are the issue. It’s people coming over here on graduate visas and bring their family over. The issue is they don’t have the skill we need. Over 500 applications for recent hires. Mostly people on graduate visas and not up to the job.

We are well known in IT/engineering for proving stellar graduates - who are being headhunted elsewhere. The UK is highly regarded in that field. We are desperately trying to fill this gap with people not up to scratch. The result? Globals are hiring elsewhere and people are relocating.

Unless you are actively in the private sector right now it is impossible to describe the car crash it is. That lack of skill and tax is starting to filter down to public spending plans and it will be the private sector next.

People who don’t realise there is an issue are either pensioners, on welfare or are in the public sector. It’s the only explanation because you’d have to have lost your mind to work in the private sector and not see the issue getting worse daily.

Every single word of this, 1000%.
It's really scary how people don't see this and MN seemingly attracts higher educated demographics.

TheNuthatch · 14/02/2025 20:56

Andwhoisasking · 14/02/2025 20:49

Over 500 CVs and it was mostly shit written by AI. Not up to the job at all - the majority all here on graduate visas. So posts will be recruited in Silicon Valley instead. Literally destroying progressive industries and forcing all the homegrown and very good talent out. It’s bloody awful. These are the higher rate tax payers/talent of the future we need here. Not importing sub standard people and their families at net cost to the state.

You're right! Absolutely spot on but unfortunately some of the pps on this thread seem to be living on a different planet!

Andwhoisasking · 14/02/2025 21:03

TheNuthatch · 14/02/2025 20:56

You're right! Absolutely spot on but unfortunately some of the pps on this thread seem to be living on a different planet!

Which is where the sector is relevant. There is no way anyone working in a global, highly skilled industry in the UK (private sector) who isn’t aware of the absolute disaster unfolding. People who don’t out themselves. The only possible explanation, that people can lack such awareness, is they don’t know what’s happening. Either through being retired, on welfare, in the public sector, ignorant or a combination of all. It’s a disaster right now.

Papyrophile · 14/02/2025 21:07

I hate being a gloom monger but I am fearful for our children's future prospects. Relationships seem to be snake-pits and paid employment, even as a waiter, seems to require a masters even to be considered for a job.

ARealitycheck · 14/02/2025 21:17

Papyrophile · 14/02/2025 21:07

I hate being a gloom monger but I am fearful for our children's future prospects. Relationships seem to be snake-pits and paid employment, even as a waiter, seems to require a masters even to be considered for a job.

I agree up to the waiter comment. One of the hardest jobs I ever had was waiting tables. The physical requirements along with interpersonal skills and memory are immense. Work in a hotel for a summer and then tell me it's easy.

BIossomtoes · 14/02/2025 21:19

ARealitycheck · 14/02/2025 21:17

I agree up to the waiter comment. One of the hardest jobs I ever had was waiting tables. The physical requirements along with interpersonal skills and memory are immense. Work in a hotel for a summer and then tell me it's easy.

She didn’t say it was easy, it was a comment on the inflated expectations of some employers.

EasternStandard · 14/02/2025 21:21

@Andwhoisasking your posts show the issue

OhMargaret · 14/02/2025 22:15

If London is anything to go buy, it will be foreign investors using British housing stock purely as an asset, often without setting foot in the country (and a lot of them don’t even bother to rent out the properties). The U.K. might be declining but there is no shortage of international wealth.

OhMargaret · 14/02/2025 22:18

neverthelastone · 13/02/2025 00:52

You say that: but, think about it a little more…

WHO is going to buy the properties to release the inheritance? You’re assuming there is some third category of people who are going to pony up the cash at current values so that it can be released. Who are those people?

So far, when the older generation has been liquidating property to give inheritances to their children, much of it has been bought by landlords (often themselves of the older generation — 1 in 6 boomers are landlords). ONS statistics show that most of the property market has been sustained in the last few years by over-55s essentially trading properties amongst themselves. A lot of the bottom rungs of the market — the properties that first or second time buyers have traditionally bought — is now private rental stock.

When more and more need to sell, who buys the properties at the inflated values so that the inheritances can be released? You need a market to sell to: landlords, investors, immigrants, young people. For this you need economic confidence: low interest rates, a booming economy, expectation that property values will rise, good jobs on offer with good wages and a decent level of disposable income.

What happens to property in a time of recession or economic under confidence? And once more and more over-60s — who, remember, outnumber the younger generations — start dying or going into care homes, and put more and more properties on the market — what happens to them in an economic downturn? Well, Barbara who wants to downsize but can’t find a buyer doesn’t want to drop the price, so she puts it off a bit longer. After all, she wants to preserve the kids’ inheritance. But Ethel next door needs to go into a care home, so Ethel’s son has to drop his price to sell the house to afford it because there aren’t any of the cheaper state care home places available in their area.

Suddenly, prices on that street are now lower. But there still aren’t many buyers around, and eventually Barbara’s kids want her to sell up to buy herself that new hip privately. She’s got three children, though, so once she’s downsized, splitting the profit between three of them isn’t as much as they thought. Interest rates are higher, the cost of childcare has rocketed, and taxes have gone up, so even with the extra inheritance Barbara’s kids can’t afford to trade up to a new house; and they can’t find a buyer for theirs either, because there are no first time buyers at the bottom of the market. More and more older people need to sell to help fund their care, and they are competing for the precious few buyers who can afford to buy in a downturn when interest rates are high, credit is tight and workers are worried about their jobs.

In the meantime, Nigel Farage has become PM; immigration has collapsed, and he’s put half the universities out of business, to the cheers of his target voters and the Daily Mail, who have been chanting “no more Mickey Mouse degrees!” Only, now all the market for student rental flats and HMOs for immigrant workers has collapsed too, so rents are plummeting. More older people start to panic and put their houses on the market, but that just makes the situation worse, because more recent buyers in the market start to be hamstrung by negative equity, whereas boomers own outright, so they can drop their prices lower and are more desperate to sell (or their kids need to sell, so they’ll accept a lower inheritance in order to have their parents’ houses off their hands). Old people do keep dying, after all, and leaving their houses behind, even if there aren’t enough buyers who can afford them. And there you have a classic market crash. The engines that powered property speculation on the way up go into reverse. Why buy when the market’s falling?

If you think my narrative above is too fictional, consider this: since there are fewer people in the lower generations than the older population, who IS going to buy the houses to release the inheritances? That’s the same people who want the inheritances. But there aren’t as many of them as there are houses to sell. (If you think it’s just going to trickle down a property “ladder”, unfortunately the ladder broke some time ago, and landlords replaced lots of the buyers on the middle and lower rungs. Only, the landlords are the same older people who’ll also be selling up their other houses, too…)

Immigration was actually what governments hoped would plug this gap. Ironically, the voters who this would actually benefit actually vote against it, rushing to economic disaster like turkeys to a Christmas market.

Ditto re Brexit. If the idiots vote in Reform, that’s like getting Trump 2.0. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me!

Edited

If London is anything to go buy, it will be foreign investors using British housing stock purely as an asset, often without setting foot in the country (and a lot of them don’t even bother to rent out the properties). The U.K. might be declining but there is no shortage of international wealth.

Xenia · 14/02/2025 22:28

I think we will be fine. I don't feel as if the risks are as high eg as in the 70s when there was more genuine threat of nuclear annihilation or as my parents felt in WWII. I remember the 90s crash and the 2008 credit crunch etc. We will weather difficult periods as the free market and democracy work. If people don't like it here they will go elsewhere.

Even back to 1900 when 90% of people in the UK rented from private landlords and we had 1m live in servants I think people could be and were happy. There are lots of ways we can live and be fine.

ARealitycheck · 14/02/2025 22:35

Leira2025 · 14/02/2025 20:37

Yes, it feels almost exactly like the early 1990s to me, only with billions more people on the planet and everyone still not recovered from the banking crisis, Brexit, COVID or the cost of living crisis. Well, apart from the likes of Rees Mogg and Farage. They never suffer.

And now we have President Musk and his mad little mini mes and the rise of the Far Right. Again. There'll be nothing left of America in four years time and Europe will only survive if it pulls together.

As for the UK, well, I'm glad I'm in the latter third of my life as I think it is going to get very very tough. We're basically living in the 18th century but with cars and computers.

Mostly correct but not sure I'd call it far right. Most of us are pretty centric in our views, unfortunately any time somebody says to look after ourselves first, the false accusations of right wing ideology is spouted.

abracadabra1980 · 14/02/2025 22:45

PrimalLass · 12/02/2025 14:07

Labour decided to make a bad situation for businesses even worse.

This. I can barely afford to heat my premises

abracadabra1980 · 14/02/2025 22:52

As an older mumsnetter, IMHE Labour spend too much every time they are in Government, then leave the Tories to tighten it up again. They are both a shit show these days and much of a muchness.
I have no political allegiance and have always been a floating voter, but to see the speech JD Vance made at the Munich conference yesterday, just made our country's 'leaders' look laughable.
Whatever you think of Trump, he has presence as does JDV, and I yearn for a strong leader. Interestingly none of our current woeful cabinet have ever owned or ran a business. I'm a business owner and am seriously thinking of leaving the UK, and advising my children to consider the same.

JeremiahBullfrog · 14/02/2025 23:02

Tories consistently harmed the economy through a whole succession of disastrous policies, but now people are angry at Labour for something that might not even happen 🤔

ThroughThickAndThin01 · 15/02/2025 08:23

PrimalLass · 12/02/2025 14:07

Labour decided to make a bad situation for businesses even worse.

Spot on. The thread could have stopped right here, little more to say.

Ma11ard · 15/02/2025 08:32

abracadabra1980 · 14/02/2025 22:52

As an older mumsnetter, IMHE Labour spend too much every time they are in Government, then leave the Tories to tighten it up again. They are both a shit show these days and much of a muchness.
I have no political allegiance and have always been a floating voter, but to see the speech JD Vance made at the Munich conference yesterday, just made our country's 'leaders' look laughable.
Whatever you think of Trump, he has presence as does JDV, and I yearn for a strong leader. Interestingly none of our current woeful cabinet have ever owned or ran a business. I'm a business owner and am seriously thinking of leaving the UK, and advising my children to consider the same.

You have no political allegiance but love Trump and Vance.😂

Boris, Truss and Co tightened what up exactly? The decimated services, huge financial pain and isolation because of Brexit, worsening immigration ….

SerendipityJane · 15/02/2025 09:32

TheNuthatch · 14/02/2025 19:01

If you look at the link I posted, the UK unemployment rate fell from 4.1 to 4.0 June-Aug 24. At the end of Aug going into Septemeber it went up to 4.3.

Was your link to the official ONS site ? (You can draw your own conclusions by me asking rather than searching for a link you posted).

TheNuthatch · 15/02/2025 14:36

SerendipityJane · 15/02/2025 09:32

Was your link to the official ONS site ? (You can draw your own conclusions by me asking rather than searching for a link you posted).

Ah, so instead of conceding because you're wrong, you've taken 24 hours to decide to trash the source. Unemployment is rising.

abracadabra1980 · 15/02/2025 19:02

@Ma11ard ...and this/your embellishment,

" but love Trump and Vance.😂
Boris, Truss and Co tightened what up exactly?"

is what we have to endure with political parties and MSM day in, day out.
Complete fabrication in utter lies in some instances.
Read my post, you are 'spinning' my words into complete shit.

juggleit · 19/02/2025 23:12

JeremiahBullfrog · 14/02/2025 23:02

Tories consistently harmed the economy through a whole succession of disastrous policies, but now people are angry at Labour for something that might not even happen 🤔

All political parties are rubbish - the calibre of the MP’s is declining. There is very little comparative high performing talent in the public sector. Look at Boris’s track record and now look at Starmer, the fudging and floundering from
Both of them; voters are right to be worried about leadership of the UK.

It will be not improve until there is real reform to the civil service - unelected officials run the country the rest are puppets holding their scripts. Any talent that begins with the civil service soon leave when they realise they will make little difference while tied up wading through bureaucratic process.

TizerorFizz · 20/02/2025 06:14

The civil service is not there to make a difference. It’s there to make governmtnt function. To make the policies of the government come into being via laws and other means. Of course it needs talent but the government is where is truly lacking. I agree many MPs are not good enough. They can spout political dogma but are woefully short of ideas that make a real difference. We have too many unintended consequences of poof legislation.