For stopping a man taking his daughter in swimming pool changing room?

[Anotsolittlemermaid]

I am a regular user but changed name for this as I’ve spoken to a few people about it so it could be outing. I apologise it’s quite a long post but couldn’t cut it much shorter as context is needed.

I have a monthly subscription to a gym with a swimming pool that’s part of a hotel, on a Wednesday there is women’s aqua aerobics from 7-8 then adult only time from 8pm till 10pm.

Yesterday evening I got to the pool at about 8.15 after aqua aerobics and there was a man who was just arriving at the pool with his young daughter who was about 4/5.

He was being quite annoying letting her disrupt people by jumping in where people were swimming, getting in the path of other swimmers, throwing floats used for aqua across the pool and he was picking her up and throwing her.
The little girl was shrieking and screaming and a few people gave annoyed looks over at him but he carried on getting in everyone’s way.

In the end after about 20 minutes a member of staff came over and asked the man to leave the pool as children’s hours had finished, he argued a bit saying he was trying to tire his daughter out so she would sleep but the staff member was firm and said there had been two sessions of children’s hours for 2 hours at a time earlier in the day that he had been welcome to use but people who wanted to swim properly deliberately avoided them and came later.

The women’s changing room was still busy after aqua and it was mostly women swimming in the pool who had stayed after aqua to continue swimming. The changing rooms are right next to the pool so you can hear when people are in them. The men’s seemed empty but the man and his daughter were also hotel guests so he could have wrapped a towel around her and gone back to the room. He had towels and a hotel robe for himself with him.

When he got out of the pool he put the robe on but took his daughter by the hand and walked towards the women’s changing room obviously intending to go in.

The changing room is open plan with only one cubicle, it had 8 showers, 4 are in cubicles but the other 4 are open, when I had undressed before swimming the changing room had been busy with lots of women using the showers and changing after aqua, there were obviously a few women still in there as I could hear chatting and the hairdryer going.

I had been swimming lengths at the edge of the pool opposite the changing room entrance so when I saw him heading to the women’s I called out to him “sorry but that’s the ladies and it’s busy, you can take your daughter to the men’s I’m sure it’s empty or can you not just put your towel around her and go to your room?”

The man glared at me and said he wasn’t taking his daughter into a room where men might be undressing and he had taken her into changing rooms before where no one had ever had a problem.

I said it was more likely they did have a problem but didn’t feel comfortable saying so, I was getting angry at this point so I said I’d go and get the member of staff to see what he said.

The man obviously knew the staff member wasn’t going to approve this and started ranting about how awful it was that first his daughter had been asked to leave the pool and now he couldn’t even get her dry and dressed again because of busy bodies sticking their oar in. Another women who was swimming and had overheard backed me up that it was completely inappropriate and no one over 8 is allowed in the opposite sex changing room. The man wasn’t happy but wrapped his daughter in the towel and took her his hotel room as I’d suggested. As he was wearing the robe I have no idea if he had planned to use the women’s changing room to shower and get changed himself or not.

I hate confrontation but the other women thanked me for saying something, I spoke to the staff member when I’d finished my swim and he agreed that the man should have used the men’s changing room where there was a free cubicle. He said he’d been cheeky enough bringing his daughter during adult hours when he’d been told earlier he wouldn’t be allowed when he’d asked about it.

I assumed most people would agree with me but my friend said I was completely out of order, she said the little girl was the one who was important and it was much safer and more appropriate for her to get changed in the ladies, she said most mums would be understanding about a father bringing his daughter in and could have got changed under a towel, when I mentioned he had also been in the pool and was possibly planning on getting undressed himself she said “well no one has to look if they don’t want to”
I didn’t want to keep discussing it with her as we had argued before years ago about her bringing her 11 year old son and nephews into ladies changing rooms and I realised she was the wrong person to mention it to.

I also mentioned it to DP and he said that I was right to stop the man going in the ladies but he equally feels uncomfortable when men bring their daughters in, he also swims and said the previous week a little girl had been running naked round the changing room whilst her dad was looking at his phone and he would never allow his daughter to do that as you just don’t know what other men are thinking.

There are no family changing rooms as it’s not really a kids pool with it being attached to a gym and it’s mainly set up for members comfort. The majority of people who bring kids are hotel guests who have rooms.

I don’t feel IABU really but after hearing my friend and DP’s opinion I just wondered what others thought about it. Was I wrong to suggest the man takes his daughter into the men’s changing room? On this occasion a cubicle was free but if it hadn’t been then do some people really think that women should be expected to get showered and undressed in front of a man when he could take her into the mens changing room?
I’m just interested in others thoughts.

There is also a disabled changing room but only one and in my opinion it’s wrong to take that over if you don’t have a disability.

Ok point taken! I can see where your opinion comes from. At the time I was focussed on keeping four children safe and didn’t feel comfortable leaving the (very small and young for his age) to go off to the men’s on his own, because his parents wanted me to be with all four children at all times. I’m talking year 6 age child. Not in the same room as girls but quick shower with trunks on, towel dry and changed in cubicle. By himself, while I sorted out little ones. I’d probably do different these days (several years later). But as I said, it’s a topic that caused issues even with little children of both genders….

Your point is?

Its a fact. Small children aren't body conscious or self aware. They literally don't care or give it a second thought. And Dad should keep her covered with a towel from prying eyes anyway.

Because they weren’t little children. An 11 year old is not a little child. He should never have been anywhere near young girls getting showered and changed, even if he only walked through the room to a cubicle.

But I suppose people expect men to be in the mens changing area so can consider alternatives ( like his own hotel room) whereas people don't expect men in the ladies' changing area so would be surprised, could be naked, showering etc with absolutely no idea he was there/ was about to walk in.

That’s my whole point. That post is justifying a little girl being in a man’s space so what’s the difference in using the same points to justify a man entering a woman’s space?

The point being that it isn’t justifiable for the woman so shouldn’t be for the child either

I didn't think I had to spell this out, but the difference between b) and c) for a young girl and grown women is that girls under 8 are going to be pre-pubescent so
a) mentally less developed to even notice who is staring at them and why
b) generally emotionally less conscious and concerned about their nudity than a teenage girl or grown woman
c) not subject to the same cultural norms re: public nudity - most 7 year olds will still be getting changed in front of their peers and teachers for PE on a weekly basis, for example. Whereas most adults do not get naked in front of their colleagues regularly
d) physically less developed so the vast majority of people (who despite scaremongering on here aren't actually paedophiles) won't want to look at them, whereas the majority of heterosexual males will have some interest in older women and girls in a state of nudity

I can't even fathom how you think a) can be moot so can't even argue against that
what part of 'men's problem's are for men to fix themselves, not for women to fix for them' is 'mooted' by 'women can fix things to make it easier for men?' 'Moot' doesn't mean 'the complete opposite.'

If the nanny was with the boys how would it be unsafe?
I think you're just sexualizing children with that line of thinking.

Because the little girl is with her dad. She’s with her protector and if he has half a brain he can minimise any risk he is worried about enormously.

Whereas women and little girls could be getting changed and be fully naked when a man they weren’t expecting, who has no right to be there barges in because his little girl can’t be around dangerous awful men who might want to see her naked - see the irony here?

Do you think women should change their little boys in the men’s changing rooms?

Jesus now saying that older boys and men shouldn’t be in changing rooms with little girls is “sexualising children”.

Why not just go the whole hog people and ask our leaders to revoke women’s rights entirely? It’s clearly what you crave

11 year old boys should not be standing in a communal changing room where 11 year old girls are naked. Even with the fucking nanny.

ok so what do all the other dads with daughters do then? If it was a slightly different scenario at the end of a swimming lesson with 15 little girls wanting to get changed and 1 disabled toilet?

let alone the disabled person who those facilities are actually for!

plus in many swimming pools the 'disabled' cubicle (if there is one, and the whole space hasn't just been built to be accessible) is just a slightly larger cubicle within the men's or/and women's changing room, not completely separate from either.

a) mentally less developed to even notice who is staring at them and why - what is your point here? You could use this warped rationale to minimise almost all forms of abuse against children

b) generally emotionally less conscious and concerned about their nudity than a teenage girl or grown woman - most children are now taught about privacy, bodily autonomy and so on from a very young age

c) not subject to the same cultural norms re: public nudity - most 7 year olds will still be getting changed in front of their peers and teachers for PE on a weekly basis, for example. Whereas most adults do not get naked in front of their colleagues regularly - what has this got to do with children undressing in front of adults and vice versa?

d) physically less developed so the vast majority of people (who despite scaremongering on here aren't actually paedophiles) won't want to look at them, whereas the majority of heterosexual males will have some interest in older women and girls in a state of nudity - you must be living under a rock

He was a little child though…. He was an innocent kid who didn’t want look at anyone around him and literally had a quick shower (the showers were separate from the change area) while in trunks and then went in to a cubicle to change. Then he sat outside on a chair reading a book? I know the parents were happy that I had kept the children completely safe for several years and never once did a mother or father complain - only the odd older woman who arrived early for the after children’s session and complained that the 2,4 and 6 year old boys shouldn’t be in the women’s change rooms. That’s how early the complaints started. I would agree that 9-11 I would understand. And I would not do that these days. But I was a nanny who was eager to do the right thing by my employees and their children.

I can't believe that there is debate around this. He takes his 5 year old daughter to the men's, holds up a towel, and scowls menacingly at anyone who's gaze lingers too long in their direction. He protects her physically - not by infringing onto the rights of others.

I've never seen an adult man go into a women's swim changing room. It would be completely inappropriate. If there were no family rooms, he takes his young daughter to the men's.

I wouldn't be worried about a 4yo boy popping up in the changing room when I was naked in but I would be quite alarmed by a 40yo man popping up. It's the same vice versa. My (currently 2yo) daughter can go with my DH to his changing room. I trust him to keep her safe and to make sure she's not making the other users uncomfortable.

A) If you’re worried about men saying, what about the women and girls in THEIR changing room they’re supposed to be in having to put up with the starey man who’s barge ships way in?

b) yes girls are fight about bodily autonomy so how is it fair to have to put up with a man int heir changing room?

c) so it’s not appropriate for little girls to change in front of men…unless those men want to use the ladies changing room then the girls have to STFU because his little princess is The Most Important

d) So women and girls have to tolerate men in their changing rooms because they might be pedophiles? Can dads not be pedophiles?

Easiest solution is for everyone to change int he changing room according to their sec and kids under 8 go wherever their parent goes

Oh, well as long as that’s all he wanted to do. That’s fine. Never mind the girls in there and what they wanted… in their own changing room which an 11 year old (not a small child) boy was standing in.

You were wrong. Instead of bleating on about how you did it, maybe you should be accepting how wrong it was and what an awful position you put those girls in. Forcing them to change in front of an 11 year old boy.

Odfod with the accusation.

I think adult men should take their female children to the men's carefully Or improvise somewhere else as necessary.
Personally, I wouldn't bat an eye at a mum discretely bringing in her son as long as they were keeping to themselves and being quick.

Often there's three spaces, though. Men's, women's, and a combined disabled / baby change.

Were your employees so controlling that after 8 years they grilled you on who used what changing room? Also was not ok to push back a little ever seeing as you’d had a hand in raising these kids?

Jesus Christ.... sounds like you're projecting onto a kid fgs. That's a lot of hate you got there.

Nope..No man should.be in the women's changing rooms.

Why is this so hard to understand!

My DD is 11 and would be extremely unhappy and uncomfortable about a it being in her changing room. Totally out of order and no doubt mortifying for him too. Honestly, an 11yo being a little innocent boy who can’t change out of his clothes himself - ridiculous

because women aren't the same as children!

That's like saying 'If it's not safe for a child to drink a bottle of wine then it's not safe for an adult woman.'
Or 'If it's okay for a woman to cross a busy road on her own then it's okay for a 4 year old to do the same.'

Women and children are not the same, emotionally, physically, intellectually, sexually....so can, and indeed should in many cases, be treated differently, according to the circumstances

these circumstances are the pretty much universally culturally accepted norms that nudity in children is different to nudity in adults, and that safeguarding for children is different to safeguarding for adults.
Didn't think I'd actually ever have to explain that in black and white but there you go.

Also, for those in the back - her dad is with her. He’s there to make her feel and be safe. She can trust him 100%. Women don’t have that protector or that reassurance when some arsehole selfish creep barges into their space