For stopping a man taking his daughter in swimming pool changing room?

[Anotsolittlemermaid]

I am a regular user but changed name for this as I’ve spoken to a few people about it so it could be outing. I apologise it’s quite a long post but couldn’t cut it much shorter as context is needed.

I have a monthly subscription to a gym with a swimming pool that’s part of a hotel, on a Wednesday there is women’s aqua aerobics from 7-8 then adult only time from 8pm till 10pm.

Yesterday evening I got to the pool at about 8.15 after aqua aerobics and there was a man who was just arriving at the pool with his young daughter who was about 4/5.

He was being quite annoying letting her disrupt people by jumping in where people were swimming, getting in the path of other swimmers, throwing floats used for aqua across the pool and he was picking her up and throwing her.
The little girl was shrieking and screaming and a few people gave annoyed looks over at him but he carried on getting in everyone’s way.

In the end after about 20 minutes a member of staff came over and asked the man to leave the pool as children’s hours had finished, he argued a bit saying he was trying to tire his daughter out so she would sleep but the staff member was firm and said there had been two sessions of children’s hours for 2 hours at a time earlier in the day that he had been welcome to use but people who wanted to swim properly deliberately avoided them and came later.

The women’s changing room was still busy after aqua and it was mostly women swimming in the pool who had stayed after aqua to continue swimming. The changing rooms are right next to the pool so you can hear when people are in them. The men’s seemed empty but the man and his daughter were also hotel guests so he could have wrapped a towel around her and gone back to the room. He had towels and a hotel robe for himself with him.

When he got out of the pool he put the robe on but took his daughter by the hand and walked towards the women’s changing room obviously intending to go in.

The changing room is open plan with only one cubicle, it had 8 showers, 4 are in cubicles but the other 4 are open, when I had undressed before swimming the changing room had been busy with lots of women using the showers and changing after aqua, there were obviously a few women still in there as I could hear chatting and the hairdryer going.

I had been swimming lengths at the edge of the pool opposite the changing room entrance so when I saw him heading to the women’s I called out to him “sorry but that’s the ladies and it’s busy, you can take your daughter to the men’s I’m sure it’s empty or can you not just put your towel around her and go to your room?”

The man glared at me and said he wasn’t taking his daughter into a room where men might be undressing and he had taken her into changing rooms before where no one had ever had a problem.

I said it was more likely they did have a problem but didn’t feel comfortable saying so, I was getting angry at this point so I said I’d go and get the member of staff to see what he said.

The man obviously knew the staff member wasn’t going to approve this and started ranting about how awful it was that first his daughter had been asked to leave the pool and now he couldn’t even get her dry and dressed again because of busy bodies sticking their oar in. Another women who was swimming and had overheard backed me up that it was completely inappropriate and no one over 8 is allowed in the opposite sex changing room. The man wasn’t happy but wrapped his daughter in the towel and took her his hotel room as I’d suggested. As he was wearing the robe I have no idea if he had planned to use the women’s changing room to shower and get changed himself or not.

I hate confrontation but the other women thanked me for saying something, I spoke to the staff member when I’d finished my swim and he agreed that the man should have used the men’s changing room where there was a free cubicle. He said he’d been cheeky enough bringing his daughter during adult hours when he’d been told earlier he wouldn’t be allowed when he’d asked about it.

I assumed most people would agree with me but my friend said I was completely out of order, she said the little girl was the one who was important and it was much safer and more appropriate for her to get changed in the ladies, she said most mums would be understanding about a father bringing his daughter in and could have got changed under a towel, when I mentioned he had also been in the pool and was possibly planning on getting undressed himself she said “well no one has to look if they don’t want to”
I didn’t want to keep discussing it with her as we had argued before years ago about her bringing her 11 year old son and nephews into ladies changing rooms and I realised she was the wrong person to mention it to.

I also mentioned it to DP and he said that I was right to stop the man going in the ladies but he equally feels uncomfortable when men bring their daughters in, he also swims and said the previous week a little girl had been running naked round the changing room whilst her dad was looking at his phone and he would never allow his daughter to do that as you just don’t know what other men are thinking.

There are no family changing rooms as it’s not really a kids pool with it being attached to a gym and it’s mainly set up for members comfort. The majority of people who bring kids are hotel guests who have rooms.

I don’t feel IABU really but after hearing my friend and DP’s opinion I just wondered what others thought about it. Was I wrong to suggest the man takes his daughter into the men’s changing room? On this occasion a cubicle was free but if it hadn’t been then do some people really think that women should be expected to get showered and undressed in front of a man when he could take her into the mens changing room?
I’m just interested in others thoughts.

There is also a disabled changing room but only one and in my opinion it’s wrong to take that over if you don’t have a disability.

Not in the women’s changing room, when he is a man.

So your friend thinks HIS daughter shouldn't be exposed to men changing, but everyone else's daughter should be? Is she an idiot?

I can’t refer to you previous post as it’s now been deleted, but you have definitely referred to me as a stupid half-wit who is ‘too dumb’ to be a parent

YANBU at all @Anotsolittlemermaid . I once had to stop a woman going into the men's changing room to chase up her son. She was outraged at the idea that the other boys right to dignity and privacy might be more important than her convenience "but I'm a mother".

Up to 7 - because the convention I thought was at 8 they use their own sex changing rooms?

You absolutely said that if I didn’t trust my husband to take my daughter into the men’s changing room, then it was a ‘red flag’ and he must be ‘dodgey’ - with the implication that he was a pervert himself.

What type of man thinks he can swan into the woman’s changing room anyway? All we hear about these days is people objecting to trans women using women’s facilities yet some posters think it’s fine for men to use them as long as they have a child with them? He should’ve planned it out beforehand and not been so entitled to think he’d be welcome in there.

and no, I’m not anti-trans - it wouldn’t bother me but it does bother some women and they’re entitled to safe spaces.

No I don’t. I was referring to men who can’t take their DDs into a changing room and give them privacy

100% he should not take his daughter in the female changing room.

Anyone who thinks this is fine is not looking at the bigger picture.

In hindsight my post was a little clumsily worded, I was really saying I thought there was a time and a place for nudity in general. Obviously it is different in a changing room, but in that context I think that while it's inevitable we might catch the odd accidental glimpse while someone is changing (which I'm guessing falls into the category of what you'd consider incidental nudity), it's a bit different with the 'performative' types, and let's face it they do exist. I just have this mental image of blokes in the men's changing room being tone deaf to the fact that there's a little girl in there, and strolling casually around with everything swinging, which would have horrified me at that age.

But I do accept everyone's different and I do take your point about porn etc. I'm not sure I know where the balance point is really between not turning nudity back into some sort of social taboo which I agree isn't healthy, and not inflicting 'performative' nudity on people (of any age) who'd rather not see it. But I'm derailing now.

Oh but I thought aged 8 was an arbitrary number??

I said don’t you trust your husband to protect your DD in a changing room? If not why not - is he stupid?

I said if little girls don’t feel safe around their dads that’s a red flag. Now calm your tit

It seems some people think women are only entitled to privacy if it doesnt even remotely, inconvenience men.

So...if I'm understanding correctly, some dads dont want their daughters changed in the men's. Either because they don't want their child seeing naked bodies of the opposite sex, or because they don't want men to see their daughter changing. Either way, it's because they feel there is an impropriety or risk for their daughter in being in the space designed for the opposite sex. How completely bizarre then, that when it comes to them as a man being in a room with women and other peoples daughters, that's OK.
I genuinely don't know whether they're just being a bit thick with the logic fail, or are actually so entitled they believe they should be an exception. In the OPs scenario given the man didn't have the wit to check swim times, never mind facilities, I'd be leaning towards both.

WTF. No!

So, you would be quite happy if a man strolled into a changing room while you were naked or half naked?

I'm with the OP here. He should have used the accessible changing room or asked a member of staff where he could get his daughter dressed.

It is absolutely NOT on for a man to wander into a women's changing room regardless of how many small children he has with him.

Yes I think men are less trustworthy than women. I suppose everyone has different life experiences which might affect their views on this.

I would struggle to reliably change my 4/5 year old under a towel and maintain privacy I think, but perhaps other people are more practiced at this than I am.

There’s also the issue of the child seeing naked men, and that there might be men present who make no effort to keep themselves covered, and maybe even get a kick out of exposing themselves. A bit like a flasher I suppose. I know some people will think I’m being paranoid, and maybe I am, but there is it.

I suppose he could just be the sort of person who doesn't think things out beforehand. There are quite a few, even on MN! Say the sort of things like 'our rubbish just mounts up and we don't have room in the bin.' A bit helpless really. Here's what he or anyone else in a similar position could do: have a towelling robe/dressing gown for the girl, dry most of the water off her at the poolside while she is still wearing her swimming costume, put the robe on her and take her back to the hotel room, (having done the same procedure for himself) where she has a hot shower to get rid of the chlorine smell and the swimming costume is rinsed and hung up to dry. No need for a 'sopping wet child' to have to walk through the public area of the foyer. Not rocket science!

Eh how does that work?

Mum & boy come out the pool, 8yo is expected to be in the men's alone.

Mum is wet and needs to get herself dried. How can she possibly be loitering around outside the men's changing rooms waiting on the boy?

I do agree in principle that the boy should be fine but I certainly think there is more risk to a boy in the men's changing rooms alone than their is to a child waiting at a busy school gate for a few minutes.

MN perception of risk is a bit skewed at times.

No adult should be entering the changing room of the opposite sex. He has the option to change his daughter at the pool side under a towel, use the cubicle in the male changing room or go to his room.

So what exactly do you think the men are going to do in the presence of the child's father? Surely the father is capable of protecting his child? You can use a hooded towel to cover up the child. They work very well.

Wrt to men making no effort to cover themselves, you have the exact same thing in the women's. A woman who wants to shower naked is going to do so. Equally, many women would struggle to get dressed under a towel so will be naked for part of the dressing process. I'm sure there are also women who get a kick out of flashing but like men, they would be very much in the minority.

Even if a child does catch a glimpse of nudity, it's hardly going to scar them for life unless the parents have primed them that way.

Call me cynical, but I don't think the two are unconnected. Get people to agree that there are some benign reasons for using opposite sex facilities, women using the mens toilets when there's a queue for the ladies, men having to use women's changing rooms because they're good dads and otherwise a child would be unable to swim, this exception, that exception for...reasons. Well it's the thin end of the wedge to a much more liberal view of who can use single sex spaces.

I completely agree that MN perception of risk is often really off (see also: the insistence that walking a toddler across a forecourt is much safer than leaving them in a car for 3 minutes while you pay for petrol). There is also a different attitude to risk for young girls and young boys.

Yes, which was clearly aimed at my DH, but you also aimed insults at me. Clearly mumsnet felt it was enough of a personal attack to delete the post.

It is, but you asked me what I’d be happy with and I’ve answered you. What do you want me to say?!

You can save the back pedalling. You were unbelievably insulting - just own it.

In fairness to @BottomWibblyWob , I didn't read her posts as being directed at you or your dh directly but rather at parents who are incapable of protecting their child. That said, I can also see how you perceived them as being directed at you.

Says she, perfectly perched on the fence 😁

They're for disabled people.

I didn’t think you were wrong until the last paragraph. If you knew about the unisex disabled changing room and he didn’t, you should have directed him to that. It’s disabled accessible, not reserved, and in this instance it would have been appropriate and understandable for him to use it with his daughter.