A man undressing in front of a woman without her consent is an act of intimidation and control. Men do not acquire consent by identifying as women

[SernieBanders]

How and why has it become anything but voyeurism and control?

What on earth can be done to reverse the madness?

Trans staff should always be given dignified, adequate, separate changing spaces. Females should never feel cowed, silenced, intimidated into putting up with a man looking at them half naked.

Background.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/why-scots-nurse-sandie-peggie-has-taken-nhs-fife-to-tribunal-over-dr-beth-upton-transgender-dispute-4974664

(Phrase inspired by a tweet from x.com/SonyaDouglas )

Men staying out the ladies perhaps?

What is that opposing view?

Oh dear lord, the comprehension is not strong with you is it.

An opposing view would be that men are allowed in women's spaces. That's not a view I hold.

An alternative view to this particular situation is, that the merits of this particular case are not as strong as one may think. Not because the man should have been in the room, but because the background of this case is far muddier than that. Where you have allegations not related to the changing room which have led to a suspension, this case isn't the panacea. There needs to be a strong, clear case raised against NHS Fife, (or the Scottish Government, whose guidance they are following) so that the issue of single sex spaces can be resolved.

And, if after reading this post, you fail to see that, then I can't help you. If you all fail to see that, then it seems what people say about this issue on Mumsnet is actually correct. Nobody wants to find a solution, they just want to shout about the problem.

Alot of words to say 'I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about'.

Still actual no response to anything.

Probably note.

So, back to way we were - blokes that way; women this way.

Individual cubicle for the very few Trans women (as it is never Transmen causing issues).

What does it matter what a man looks like? Is there a hair length that allows entry to seeing you naked?

As I've said, there isn't any person I'd be happy with seeing me naked.

If it doesn't matter what Upton looks like, why are you gagging to see a photo?

I wonder why Reduxx managed it but not the BBC? Or Pink News, perhaps?

GB news haven't either, if you are suggesting some kind of bias.

I misread a post and so deleted my response.

Sure, I imagine GB news don't give a fuck about women either.

The Dr said these things happened, the nurse said they didn't.

Why is it his story that you believe?

The only allegation she has agreed with is that she would leave the changing room when he was using it. She has the right to make that choice doesn't she? Or is it bullying for a woman to feel unable to strip down to her underwear in front a man?

I don't wear bikinis on the beach, I've only ever been undressed in front of my husband, I dress modestly. I'm not religious in any way, it's just how I feel most comfortable. If my workplace forced me into a situation where the only place I had to get changed was a room where males could wander in and get undressed and see me get undressed then I would not be able to use that room and would have to leave if a man walked in. That wouldn't be bullying.

The only time she asked him to leave was when she had bled through her clothes, didn't have the option to leave and find an alternative place to get changed because she needed the facilities there and then, so she asked him to leave and told him how uncomfortable it made her to be in that space with a male,

That's not bullying.

This.

Did you read it? Becauseafter you posted the BBC link you posted 'The correct procedure would have been for her to talk to a manager in that situation.'

I had read it when I posted that. Regardless of whether she had or hadn't, it still remains a fact that it is the correct procedure. You can argue that it was worthless or pointless or ineffective, it still remains the correct procedure. There could have been no manager about for her to talk to, it still remains the correct procedure.

I know more than the "basic" information on the case because unlike the vast majority of people here, I have been following the case closely since it was made public. It is relevant to something I'm working on at the moment. I'm quite invested in the outcome of the case, because if she wins, it will be quite a benefit to the people I am working for. Sadly, for all the reasons I've stated, I don't think she will.

So not bullying then. Quelle surprise.

Refusing to work with someone, leaving a critically ill patient when they entered the area etc, can be seen as bullying. Acting in a way you acknowledge is against the harassment policy but doing it anyway, can be seen as bullying.

I agree that she has an uphill battle because she will need to overcome an adverse internal NHS investigation report. I have doubts about the fairness of that report but it's there and it's a problem.

Refusing to work with someone, leaving a critically ill patient when they entered the area etc, can be seen as bullying. Acting in a way you acknowledge is against the harassment policy but doing it anyway, can be seen as bullying.

Again, are these established facts within the tribunal or are they the defendants' case?

This is misleading. This is the case being presented by the defence in the Employment Tribunal, who would say that, these are not established facts.

But the stuff that supports your argument are all established facts?

Are you sure about that?

Are these facts then? That you can attest have actually happened?

Until we can magic up the money for individual rooms or what ever the suggestion is, the rather practical general changing for each sex seems to work pretty well.

It doesn't take much TBH, I've been involved in projects where it has been done with very little cost outlay.

Do you claim to know more than what's being presented at the tribunal, @BoredZelda or are you just assuming the respondents are telling the truth?

In response Peggie said her daughter was gay and her daughter's girlfriend was welcome in spending time at Peggie's house and everyone was cool with that.

This argument doesn't hold as much weight as you might think.

Why did the counsel abandon that line of argument instantly on hearing it then?

It was because counsel for the NHS attempted a smear, it failed badly, and counsel dropped it like a hot potato.

@BoredZelda

BTW, I've been observing it for the last two days so I'm pretty sure I'm up to speed on it. To know any different to me you'd need to have knowledge further to what has been presented to court, not just reading a skewed BBC article in your lunch break.

That’s not the point is it. This is an open changing room. For females. That a male was in. Is that right. Or not

As I said. Not.

It comes down to he said she said, ultimately.

Individual cubicle for the very few Trans women (as it is never Transmen causing issues).

I've always wondered this. What do men feel like when trans men are in their areas. Not at all relevant to this argument, I just always wondered.