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A man undressing in front of a woman without her consent is an act of intimidation and control. Men do not acquire consent by identifying as women

748 replies

SernieBanders · 04/02/2025 17:56

How and why has it become anything but voyeurism and control?

What on earth can be done to reverse the madness?

Trans staff should always be given dignified, adequate, separate changing spaces. Females should never feel cowed, silenced, intimidated into putting up with a man looking at them half naked.

Background.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/why-scots-nurse-sandie-peggie-has-taken-nhs-fife-to-tribunal-over-dr-beth-upton-transgender-dispute-4974664

(Phrase inspired by a tweet from x.com/SonyaDouglas )

OP posts:
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2025 21:41

It is relevant in that Jane Russell KC, counsel for the respondent, raised this very scenario as a hypothetical.

AssassinsBlade · 04/02/2025 21:42

SernieBanders · 04/02/2025 18:19

around 10% of people seem to think it's unreasonable. I too would love to know their reasoning.

These issues always have a similar voting pattern on MN. 10-12% YABU, and everyone else is with the OP.

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 21:42

Sure, I imagine GB news don't give a fuck about women either.

Oh now come on. You don't think GB news are biased on this?

You're right, they don't give a fuck about women, but neither do Trump/Musk and they are going after trans rights.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2025 21:42

Many men I have chatted to about this don't want women in their toilets and changing rooms.

nauticant · 04/02/2025 21:43

The reason being that both men and women care about their own personal dignity.

andIsaid · 04/02/2025 21:43

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 21:42

Sure, I imagine GB news don't give a fuck about women either.

Oh now come on. You don't think GB news are biased on this?

You're right, they don't give a fuck about women, but neither do Trump/Musk and they are going after trans rights.

they are going after trans êxtra rights.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2025 21:43

Indeed @nauticant

RobinEllacotStrike · 04/02/2025 21:43

To misquote Sall Grover, "why should women have single sex spaces? Because we fucking want them. "

That we live in a time of such incredibly high rates of sexual &physical violence upon women & children by men, where rape is virtually decriminalised, and women & girls can't have single sex spaces for the mere reason that we fucking want them, well that shows a true breakdown of any decent social charter.

AssassinsBlade · 04/02/2025 21:45

SernieBanders · 04/02/2025 18:27

I have to ask - do the 10% think that men TRULY DO gain consent by saying they are women??

I think most of that ‘10%’ ARE the men who wish to gain consent by saying they are women.

RobinEllacotStrike · 04/02/2025 21:48

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 19:05

The fact that Dr Upton is a man is central to her case. Not being able to state this in the tribunal would be a complete injustice.

If her defence of bullying is that men shouldn't be allowed in changing rooms, she isn't going to get on very well. Especially if the allegation of bullying is centred around her bullying a transgender woman.

But, if she wants to go that route, I think most lawyers would be able to make that distinction without misgendering.

You do realise most people aren't in your cult and so we don't all quake in fear of "misgendering".

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2025 21:49

I expect they object to the framing of the question because they think once a man utters his self declaration of "womanhood" you should never again be referring to him as a man.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2025 21:50

I was replying to @AssassinsBlade with that last post.

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 21:51

Do you claim to know more than what's being presented at the tribunal, or are you just assuming the respondents are telling the truth?

I don't know who is telling the truth. I expect everyone is telling their own version of the truth. But as a PP has said, the fact that these allegations are out there and have been acted upon in a previous investigation and that will affect the outcome of the case.

I can see a situation where someone will use pernicious language and actions which are undoubtedly designed to 'other' a person, whilst also giving plausible deniability, but equally I can see a situation where someone is deliberately acting in a way to get under the skin of another person, and moreso in a doctor/nurse dynamic where that person can also have some ego.

I'm not inclined to blindly believe or disbelieve either person, the main issue would be with the Scottish Government policy that led to this whole mess in the first place.

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 21:52

Why did the counsel abandon that line of argument instantly on hearing it then?

Or did they leave it on the "one of my best friends is gay" type line that can also speak volumes. That in itself can play well with some people.

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 21:59

BTW, I've been observing it for the last two days so I'm pretty sure I'm up to speed on it. To know any different to me you'd need to have knowledge further to what has been presented to court, not just reading a skewed BBC article in your lunch break.

As I said, I've been following the case since it was first reported. It's been local news for months and is the first case of its kind in Scotland since the new ScotGov guidance was implemented.

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 22:00

they are going after trans êxtra rights.

I'm not sure banning them from the military is extra.

nauticant · 04/02/2025 22:02

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 21:52

Why did the counsel abandon that line of argument instantly on hearing it then?

Or did they leave it on the "one of my best friends is gay" type line that can also speak volumes. That in itself can play well with some people.

No. I was watching the hearing as counsel for the NHS dropped their attempted smear immediately because clearly it had failed.

Did your viewing of the hearing lead you to a different view?

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 22:04

You do realise most people aren't in your cult and so we don't all quake in fear of "misgendering".

After the responses to me on here, you want to suggest I'm in a cult. 😆😆

Anyway, it isn't about quaking in fear of misgendering, it is about working for an organisation who has a policy in place that says it is will lead to a disciplinary, doing it, and then complaining you have been disciplined. It causes you more stress than is necessary and ultimately solves nothing. Much better to campaign to have the policy changed.

AnSolas · 04/02/2025 22:05

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 19:54

You have a visable agenda with your quotes so I like to read the source material to independently check the reporters bias

And there we have the problem. Anyone presenting any alternative view has "an agenda". Just to clear up your misconceptions;

  • I believe single sex spaces should be available to those who want them.
  • I believe those who are in a minority, shouldn't be harassed or vilified for being who they want to be.
  • I believe the high profile cases which serve only to divide, muddy the waters and make it even harder for both sides to get what they want.
  • I believe most people who are part of the debate are genuinely trying to find a solution.
  • I believe there are extremist elements on either side of the debate who are using the genuine people who are on "their side" to bolster their extremism.
  • I believe that nitpicking on terminology (which even the US administration has struggled to determine this week) isn't getting anyone anywhere.
  • I have no opinion on whether someone chooses to call themselves something or other, as long as they aren't breaking the law.

Your headline quote was about her personal politic when the substantive issue was an employer who failed to provide single sex.
I read that as an agenda.

•Clearly the employer chose to remove the female employees access to a single sex space where that staff member had a contractual obligation to remove clothing in a designated area within their place of employment. Which was an unagreed change to the terms and conditions of her contract.

•The employer chose to not to provide a third mixed sex space and the male employee did not negotiate with managemet for that provision rather chose to enter a space where he knew female staff would be undressing.

•Its a high profile case because the employer chose not to provide a third mixed sex space and the male employee chose to apply to the court to be a direct party to the case.

•The employer was clearly not trying to find a solution as no third mixed sex space was provided.

•This is not a side nor party politics, there are three parties involved, an employer who chose not to provide a third mixed sex space and changed a (rather important) term of an employees contract, an employee who wants a single sex changing room per her agreed contract and a male employee who used a changing space where he knew females would be undressing ( per your example immeditally excluding any muslim employee with regular prayer breaks from the space) and he knew he had not obtained their consent to changing beside a male.

•Nitpicking the provision of work space where an employment contract has a specific performance clause is kind of important if the employer can sack the employee when the employer created the breach condition. (Most people would call that a basic employment right)

• the case is about the action and/or inaction of the employer and if they acted within the law

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2025 22:11

As I said, I've been following the case since it was first reported. It's been local news for months and is the first case of its kind in Scotland since the new ScotGov guidance was implemented.

Yes, so have I. What special knowledge do you think you have?

SpiritAdder · 04/02/2025 22:14

Not caring, but then I come from a culture where men and women go about naked in communal settings quite often. It’s just dressing/undressing, it’s not a swinger party with kinky sex on display.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 04/02/2025 22:17

SpiritAdder · 04/02/2025 22:14

Not caring, but then I come from a culture where men and women go about naked in communal settings quite often. It’s just dressing/undressing, it’s not a swinger party with kinky sex on display.

Have you read any of the thread at all?

FaithFables · 04/02/2025 22:18

BoredZelda · 04/02/2025 18:57

Could you quote the nasty language?

"Who the fuck are the 11% who think YU? Probably pervs themselves."

Well, this wasn't very nice.

The truth can be nasty. What other reason can there be for people to think women should be forced to undress in front of men?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2025 22:19

I believe those who are in a minority, shouldn't be harassed or vilified for being who they want to be

What does this even mean? He's male. He's not a woman. He can't "be" a woman, however much he "wants to", and his claim to be affects the rights of others.

SernieBanders · 04/02/2025 22:29

AssassinsBlade · 04/02/2025 21:42

These issues always have a similar voting pattern on MN. 10-12% YABU, and everyone else is with the OP.

I mean that’s demonstrable false in about 2 mouse clicks?

OP posts: