A man undressing in front of a woman without her consent is an act of intimidation and control. Men do not acquire consent by identifying as women

[SernieBanders]

How and why has it become anything but voyeurism and control?

What on earth can be done to reverse the madness?

Trans staff should always be given dignified, adequate, separate changing spaces. Females should never feel cowed, silenced, intimidated into putting up with a man looking at them half naked.

Background.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/why-scots-nurse-sandie-peggie-has-taken-nhs-fife-to-tribunal-over-dr-beth-upton-transgender-dispute-4974664

(Phrase inspired by a tweet from x.com/SonyaDouglas )

What bullying?

We need to know how much make up a man needs to wear before he’s allowed to see you naked without asking please.

Any man who forces himself into a female space, knowing that most of the women in there would be uncomfortable, would have a very hard time making me believe that they are, in fact, the victim of bullying.

If I recall correctly, the bullying behaviour was supposedly established in an investigation by the NHS board due to things like:
the nurse, Sandie Peggie saying to Dr Upton that he is a man;
Peggie saying to Upton about the Isla Bryson case as an example of a male person being in a female-only space such as a prison is undesirable; and
Peggie asking Upton about his chromosomes, something which Peggie denies she did.

Did you read it? Becauseafter you posted the BBC link you posted 'The correct procedure would have been for her to talk to a manager in that situation.'

So you hadn't read it yourself, or you're pretending not to know basic facts. Neither looks great.

You're stating things you can't explain nor define, if anyone should be taking a seat it's you.

I did define it, as it would pertain to me. I can't define what something means to someone else. You seem not to want to acknowledge that, but as I said, that's your only go to, isn't it.

So should anyone else who feels the need to defend an abusive, boundary trashing arsehole of a man. Which is what you're doing. Sorry - 'presenting an alternative view'.

Where did I defend Dr Upton? Which of the several times I said I support single sex spaces, led you to believe I think he should have been in there?

Or are you too busy throwing abbreviations at me to actually take a step back and comprehend what I am saying?

So not bullying then. Quelle surprise.

Is that bullying or stating a gender critical view which I understood was also a protected characteristic as per recent case law.

So nothing that could genuinely be called bullying occurred.

What a surprise 🫠

Surely in a changing room for operating theatres no one is ever naked. Underwear obviously, but no worse than when you’re at a beach. Or am I missing something?
Certainly when I’ve accessed theatres, it’s removed all clothes except underwear, then put on theatre greens.
But maybe it’s different in Scotland!!

the question is should females be forced to undress in front of males. Yes or no?

No.

In fact, nobody should be forced to undress in front of anybody. We should be moving away from open locker rooms not matter whether they are mixed or single sex.

And as we all know, the correct response for a man to give when he feels like a woman is being mean to him is to get naked in front of her and try to intimidate her into getting naked in front of him. If that doesn't work he should try to get her fired from her job.

It's policy don't you know.

If women don't want to strip to their underwear in front of men? What then?

Still waiting for this 'bullying behaviour' (by the nurse) to be explained.

It was noted above. Refusing to work with them, or work for them. Leaving the area when they came near. This was all part of an allegation of bullying that was included with the refusal to use the changing room, and the language that was used when they were in the room together.

i do hope she doesn't lose her pension

This is insane.That poor nurse. Having to talk about her heavy periods & sexual assault in the courtroom. Disgusting.Hopefully this case will alert more people. I can't imagine the majority of the UK supports this behaviour.

It was noted above. Refusing to work with them, or work for them. Leaving the area when they came near. This was all part of an allegation of bullying that was included with the refusal to use the changing room, and the language that was used when they were in the room together.

This is misleading. This is the case being presented by the defence in the Employment Tribunal, who would say that, these are not established facts.

And to be fair, leaving the area when a clearly predatory male is present seems entirely fair enough. Why couldn't she leave areas on her own volition?

Until we can magic up the money for individual rooms or what ever the suggestion is, the rather practical general changing for each sex seems to work pretty well.

Given that our Trans brothers and sisters are such a tiny minority, we don't need to upend the whole system for them.

We could organize a Trans changing room.

Indeed but as we know for TW, it’s not the space itself it’s the women in the space

if it says women’s changing on the door but no women ever use it, TW wouldn’t use it either

Just to be clear, the BBC are reporting on 2 days of cross-examination of the nurse Sandie Peggie in which counsel on behalf of the NHS made all kinds of claims about bad things Peggie had done and what a bad person Peggie is.

Today, counsel for the NHS tried to paint Peggie as homophobic. In response Peggie said her daughter was gay and her daughter's girlfriend was welcome in spending time at Peggie's house and everyone was cool with that. Counsel for the NHS abandoned that line of attack very quickly indeed.

YANBU :)

Trans women, most of whom I’m sure are not predatory & voyeuristic, should not be allowed in women only spaces such as changing rooms & communal showers - yet again, it’s an example of men getting the upper hand and it makes me feel extremely uncomfortable. What is worse is that we are written off as whining TERFS

Fuck off 🙌

No big deal imo, but I’m guessing I may be in a minority.
Obviously the solution is to have individual changing cubicles, but with the current state of the NHS, what are the realistic options?

The Dr said these things happened, the nurse said they didn't.

Why is it his story that you believe?

The only allegation she has agreed with is that she would leave the changing room when he was using it. She has the right to make that choice doesn't she? Or is it bullying for a woman to feel unable to strip down to her underwear in front a man?

I don't wear bikinis on the beach, I've only ever been undressed in front of my husband, I dress modestly. I'm not religious in any way, it's just how I feel most comfortable. If my workplace forced me into a situation where the only place I had to get changed was a room where males could wander in and get undressed and see me get undressed then I would not be able to use that room and would have to leave if a man walked in. That wouldn't be bullying.

The only time she asked him to leave was when she had bled through her clothes, didn't have the option to leave and find an alternative place to get changed because she needed the facilities there and then, so she asked him to leave and told him how uncomfortable it made her to be in that space with a male,

That's not bullying.

That’s not the point is it. This is an open changing room. For females. That a male was in. Is that right. Or not.